The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a short suspension as we proceed to the division on amendment 1.
15:49 Meeting suspended.
We proceed with the division on amendment 1. Members should cast their votes now.
The vote is closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app did not connect. I would have voted no.
Thank you. I will make sure that that is recorded.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 48, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 1 disagreed to.
Amendment 8 moved—[John Swinney]—and agreed to.
Group 2 is on regulation-making powers in the bill: impact assessments. I draw members’ attention to the procedural information that relates to this group, as set out in the groupings. Amendment 96 in group 2 is pre-empted by amendment 92 in group 13; therefore, if amendment 92 is agreed to, I will not be able to call amendment 96.
Amendment 29, in the name of Stuart McMillan on behalf of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, is grouped with amendments 54 and 96.
I have lodged amendments 29, 54 and 96 on behalf of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee. They are probing amendments, in the first instance.
As members will know, the committee recently held an inquiry into the use during the pandemic of the made affirmative procedure, which led to our recommending a set of principles that might provide the basis for considering the delegated powers, in bills, that can be exercised subject to the made affirmative procedure. Reflecting those principles, our stage 1 report on the bill recommended that the Scottish Government lodge amendments for each of the five powers that can be exercised subject to the made affirmative procedure.
16:00Those statutory requirements are threefold. First, each Scottish statutory instrument should be accompanied by a written statement explaining, and providing evidence on, why the regulations need to be made urgently. Secondly, the Government should
“include an assessment of the impact of the instrument”
on all those who are likely to be affected. Thirdly, such SSIs should be subject to a sunset provision so that changes to the law do not continue to be in force indefinitely.
In considering the bill as amended at stage 2, the committee welcomed the Scottish Government’s amendments that require a statement of urgency to be provided and a sunset provision to be included when the made affirmative procedure is used. However, the Government did not lodge any amendments to require an impact assessment. Instead, it stated in response to the committee’s stage 1 report that
“current scrutiny frameworks ... are fit for purpose and ... there is no need for such an amendment.”
The committee agreed to lodge the amendments in this group because it considers that it is important that those who will be affected by changes to the law understand the impact of the regulations. That information should be accessible, clear and published in a timely manner.
I know from our evidence session at stage 1 that the Deputy First Minister accepts “the sentiment” of the committee’s position “unreservedly”. Therefore, I look forward to hearing his views.
I move amendment 29.
I am a member of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee. As the convener said, we carried out an inquiry into the use of the made affirmative procedure. Our unanimous view was that the procedure has been overused and that checks and balances should be put in place. That was our approach when we considered the bill.
At stage 2, I lodged a number of amendments, none of which were agreed to, based on the casting vote of the convener of the COVID-19 Recovery Committee. Therefore, I welcome Stuart McMillan’s amendments on behalf of the DPLR Committee. It is important that we provide checks and balances when the made affirmative procedure is used. To be frank, during the pandemic, the Government went somewhat haywire with its use of that procedure.
The amendments in the group are sensible. If Mr McMillan chooses not to press amendment 29 and not to move the other amendments in the group, I will.
Following amendments to the bill at stage 2 to provide for an explanation of urgency if the made affirmative procedure needs to be used in urgent circumstances and for a sunsetting provision to be included when appropriate, a supplementary delegated powers memorandum was considered by the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee.
In its report of 24 June, the DPLRC welcomed amendments that had been made at stage 2. The committee also recommended, as it had done in its stage 1 report, that if made affirmative powers were used, an assessment of the impact of the regulations should be provided. This group of amendments follows on from paragraph 10 of the DPLRC’s report.
The Government made it clear in its response at stage 1 that processes that are currently in place already provide the required scrutiny. Policy notes are prepared and, when appropriate, impact assessments are carried out for any SSI, not just for those that are urgent. We do not wish to add complication or delay when there is a need for urgent action.
If the Deputy First Minister is arguing that the Government already produces impact assessments, there cannot possibly be a problem with the amendments in this group.
I am simply making the point that the Government has made those commitments, and I have just set out and reflected the Government’s routine practice. Indeed, when the Minister for Parliamentary Business gave evidence to the DPLRC last week, he made it clear that the Government already carries out impact assessments and that the Government can continue to engage with the Parliament on this question.
Therefore, I do not think that there is a need for amendments 29, 54 and 96, so I invite Mr McMillan not to press amendment 29 and not to move amendments 54 and 96.
I thank the Deputy First Minister for that reply. We discussed potential amendments with the Minister for Parliamentary Business in committee last week during the private session. The committee considered that any amendments that it would lodge would be probing amendments, in order to establish any further information from the Government. Given the points that the Deputy First Minister has raised, I am content not to press amendment 29.
Mr McMillan wishes to withdraw amendment 29. Does any member object?
Members: Yes.
The question is, that amendment 29 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is now closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I was not able to enter the PIN, so I could not cast my vote. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Ms Boyack. We will make sure that that is recorded.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I do not know whether my vote registered. I would have voted yes.
It was not recorded. I will make sure that it is, Ms White.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app is frozen. I would have voted no.
I will make sure that that is recorded, Ms McAllan.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not connect. I would have voted no.
Thank you, Mr MacGregor. I will make sure that that is recorded.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I, too, could not connect. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Mr Whittle. We will make sure that that is recorded also.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 48, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 29 disagreed to.
Amendment 2 moved—[Murdo Fraser].
The question is, that amendment 2 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 2 disagreed to.
Section 5—Interpretation of Chapter
Group 3 is on educational regulations: use of powers and safeguards. Amendment 30, in the name of Oliver Mundell, is grouped with amendments 31 to 43, 9, 45, 10, 47, 49 to 52, 55 to 61, 11, 62, 63 and 65.
The majority of the amendments in this group were debated during stage 2. I have brought back my amendments not to debate them again in full or to reheat the arguments that were had at committee, but to give the Government an opportunity to change its mind. There have been only two areas in which I have been able to work with the Government to bring back amendments that we agree on. It is welcome that I have been able to do that, but the amendments are very small, given the scale of the challenges that arose in education during the pandemic, and they provide quite modest protection for our young people in the future.
There are three key things behind the amendments in my name in this group. First, the bar should be very high when it comes to closing schools. Denying our children the right to in-person education is not something that should be done lightly. We therefore have to balance the power that ministers want to take on by putting in place additional protections. The same is true in other areas of our education system beyond schools. It is right that, with that power come criteria that have to be met, and it is important that some of those are put in the bill.
Secondly, during the committee debates, we heard a lot about what I termed the John Mason principle, which is that the people who are in government now might not be in government in the future. That cuts both ways, of course. There is a chance that we could have something better, but there is a fear among those of us on these benches that it could be the same people making the same mistakes.
That takes me to the third point behind many of my amendments: they address some of the lessons that we learned during the pandemic. They seek to push the Government a bit harder to get on with meeting some of the promises that it made to young people. That particularly applies to amendment 41—which, I have to admit, is a redrafted version of a stage 2 amendment by Stephen Kerr. It makes an important change.
Does the member agree that one of the challenges that we face is that, even before the Covid investigation has taken place, assumptions are being made by the Government about what is and is not needed following Covid?
That is true, although there are some lessons that we definitely learned. There is the fact that we were so slow, in so many parts of the country, to get the appropriate electronic devices. The amendments change that—expanding the appropriate electronic devices to laptops, which addresses one of the Government’s concerns.
Most young people and families whom I speak to would be happy with any device, frankly. A laptop would be an improvement on nothing. In other parts of the country, it has been possible to get devices out very quickly. My amendments put into the bill a challenge to ministers to get on with it and make available the resources to deliver those laptops before they consider shutting schools in the future.
16:15Amendment 38 makes a similar point about consulting local authorities, rather than ministers just taking decisions all by themselves. There is also amendment 49, which it should not be hard for the Government to support, as it encourages a greater role for the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland in ensuring that the wider rights of children are explored when the powers are used.
There are also balancing provisions that ask Government ministers and key decision makers to look beyond the narrow health focus. One of the mistakes that we made is that, certainly in the early stages of the pandemic, we focused narrowly on one aspect of health and did not fully understand—or, in the Government’s case, recognise even when told—the considerable strain that was being put on our children or the long-term consequences of that. We must be more balanced in future.
I am interested to hear what the Government has to say on the amendments and whether it feels able to support any of them.
I move amendment 30.
This is a large group of amendments, many of which are the same as or similar to those that were debated at stage 2, as Mr Mundell just put on the record.
First, I will speak to amendments 9 to 11 in my name. At stage 2, I set out that the Government had worked closely throughout the pandemic with the Covid-19 education recovery group and that we would expect to do similarly in future. I agreed with the principle behind the amendments on consulting stakeholders during a public health emergency and committed to look further at an amendment on that for stage 3.
Therefore, amendment 11 in my name provides that ministers must seek views about educational continuity regulations, and any regulations under sections 9 or 10 that may be in force at the time, at least every 28 days while those regulations are in force. Ministers must seek views from representatives of education establishments and from users of those establishments—including, importantly, representatives of children and young people—along with staff and any other stakeholders that are considered appropriate.
Amendments 9 and 10 are technical amendments that bring sections 9 and 10 into line with section 8 by requiring that all regulations under those two powers are limited to “a specified period”.
I now turn to the other amendments in the group.
At stage 2, the Government lodged amendments that further strengthened the safeguards that were already in the bill and established a process by which the education powers could be used only with parliamentary approval of a public health declaration by ministers. That ensured that those powers could be used only with parliamentary authorisation in the event of a future threat to public health. Amendments 57 and 58 would remove that gateway vote mechanism. I cannot understand that. Why remove a significant safeguard to the use of the powers to which Parliament has already agreed? I urge members to keep the gateway provisions in the bill and reject those amendments.
Amendments 30, 33, 35, 43, 45, 47, 52, 55, 61 and 65 would leave out sections 5 to 14 of the bill. Throughout the progress of the bill through Parliament, we have made clear the importance of those powers in the bill.
Amendment 56 would provide that education regulations could be in place only when public health protection regulations are in place. It may not necessarily have that effect, as some regulations made under the public health provision may be permanent preparedness regulations, in which case the amendment would not achieve its purpose.
Amendment 49 is similar to amendment 130, which was lodged at stage 2. We remain concerned about how the children’s commissioner could provide a view on whether regulations were proportionate or necessary without access to the full information and advice on public health that ministers would have. My amendment 11 now also ensures that the views of children and young people will be sought when education continuity regulations are in place.
Amendment 41 is similar to amendment 119, which was lodged at stage 2. It requires ministers to provide an electronic device and an internet connection where regulations under section 8 have been made. The Government is already committed to ensuring that every child has access to a device by the end of this parliamentary session and, indeed, made a significant investment to that effect during the pandemic.
I am grateful for the Deputy First Minister’s comment and am cognisant of the commitment that he made on behalf of his party to provide every child at school in Scotland with a device and an internet connection.
However, given the feedback that he gave when the issue was considered at stage 2, I am completely at a loss to understand why the Government is now not minded to put it into law. It would surely be an underscoring of the commitment that he has already made to the young people of Scotland—this way, no child would get left behind. It must surely be our objective that, in such an emergency that the bill envisages, everything possible is done to ensure that no child is left behind. The Government is honour bound by its manifesto commitment to put it into the bill.
We do not put all policy commitments into legislation. That is a statement of representative fact on the approach to legislation.
The Government has made the commitment that I have set out. We are working through the commitment with our local authority partners. We are working in partnership with local authorities in the best means possible at local level to implement schemes—many local authorities are taking them forward—and we are supporting them on the effort to deliver on that commitment.
I do not want to be unreasonable, but I have not heard a reason why that precaution cannot be part of the bill. There is no reason at all; in fact, as I said earlier, it is a way of underscoring our commitment that no child gets left behind. That is a commitment that the Deputy First Minister has already made, so why can it not be in the bill?
With the greatest respect to Mr Kerr, I gave an answer to the question why it is not in the bill: it is because we do not legislate for all policy commitments. If I could give Mr Kerr some advice, I note that a way of supporting the implementation of the policy commitment—about which I acknowledge that he cares deeply—would be to vote for the Government’s budget that gives effect to those provisions. However, he did not do that earlier this year.
Amendment 38 would, in effect, give local authorities a veto over the closure of local authority-run schools in their area, which is undesirable in terms of managing a future public health emergency that requires a co-ordinated, national response. The same goes for amendments 39 and 36.
Amendments 37 and 51 are identical to those that were debated at stage 2, and I remain of the view that they would prevent regulations from swiftly and effectively addressing a public health emergency.
Amendment 40 was also debated at stage 2, and I remain of the view that it is unnecessary, because any regulations would be expected to include provision relating to ensuring continuity of educational provision and to be accompanied by guidance. Similarly, amendment 42 ignores the existing guidance and regulation-making powers in the bill, which we could use to make clear that pupil-school contact should be facilitated and to give operators appropriate flexibility for different stages of education or needs.
Amendment 50 would put in statute a requirement on ministers to seek voluntary arrangements with education providers before making any regulations. The amendment would significantly delay bringing forward any regulations. Where appropriate, ministers would expect to use voluntary arrangements where possible, but that might not always be the case.
Amendments 59 and 60 were debated at stage 2. They would add an additional requirement to review any regulations within seven days of a new member of the Scottish Government or a junior minister assuming responsibility for the regulations. That would undermine the principle of collective responsibility under the Scotland Act 1998.
Amendment 62, regarding relevant authorities using their professional judgment, could give them significant scope to make different decisions for their establishment despite national advice, guidance or regulations.
Why does the Deputy First Minister believe that the Government knows better than those people on the front line who teach and look after our young people and who have to make difficult practical decisions?
I am not making the argument that the Government knows best. I am saying that, in the case of a pandemic that has national effect, the Government is required to put in place guidance that will have to be reflected and followed at local level. In those circumstances, we as a Government have a duty of care to the country, in general, to ensure that guidance is clear and accessible to professionals at local level, so that they can use their judgment in the context of the guidance. That is an important factor in establishing the framework that is envisaged in the bill provisions that are before the Parliament.
There is already scope for deviation from guidance or advice, where necessary, in line with the legal responsibilities that are exercised at the local level. Nothing in the bill is intended to undermine the professional judgment and knowledge of those in educational establishments. A provision such as the one contained in amendment 62 does not provide clarity on the action that providers need to take, and it would hinder swift and decisive national action.
Similarly, amendment 63 would place another unacceptable delay on ministers when they are, in effect, responding to a national emergency.
For the reasons that I have given, I invite Parliament not to vote in favour of any of the amendments in this group, with the exception of my amendments 9, 10 and 11.
We have heard the Government’s approach: it is its way or no way at all. That is sad, because there was an opportunity to work together and make sure that the principle of professional judgment was built into the legislation. That is the least that our hard-working educational professionals deserve. Yes, it is right that we have national measures, but there has to be a recognition that, if broad and blunt approaches are to be taken quickly in an emergency in an effort to get things right across the country, there needs to be room, at a local level, for people to take pragmatic and sensible decisions that are in the best interests of our young people.
To say that Government ministers can make rules nationally that fit all scenarios is wrong, and it does not speak to many of the challenges that we saw during the pandemic, when things that were announced here or on television did not work out so well when it came to their implementation. There needs to be more discretion and flexibility.
On amendments 57 and 58, I reassure members who are worried about the provisions that those amendments seek to take out that I intend to press them only if we manage to get the rest of the education sections removed. That is my preference. The legislation is not fit for purpose, and it is not right for such issues to be grouped in a catch-all bill. As we will argue in the closing debate, and as we have said throughout, the preparation work should have been done and the legislation should have been on the shelf, ready to go. We should not be putting some of the proposed sections on to the statute book and handing broad powers to ministers.
The question is, that amendment 30 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would have voted no. My app would not connect.
Thank you. I will make sure that that is recorded.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My device is not connecting to the parliamentary system. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Mr Mountain. I will make sure that that is recorded.
Craig Hoy, who is online, has a point of order.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app froze and I would have voted—[Inaudible.]
Sorry, Mr Hoy—could you repeat how you would have voted?
I would have voted yes. My app froze.
Thank you, Mr Hoy. I will make sure that that is recorded.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 48, Against 65, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 30 disagreed to.
Section 6—Duty to have regard to public health advice
16:30Amendments 31 and 32 not moved.
Amendment 33 moved—[Oliver Mundell].
The question is, that amendment 33 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Sorry—my app is still having problems and I could not get logged in. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Mr Hoy. I will make sure that that is recorded.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 33 disagreed to.
Section 7—Guidance on public health measures
Amendment 34 not moved.
Amendment 35 moved—[Oliver Mundell].
The question is, that amendment 35 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 35 disagreed to.
Section 8—Regulations on continuing operation of educational establishments
Amendments 36 to 40 not moved.
Amendment 41 moved—[Oliver Mundell].
The question is, that amendment 41 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 41 disagreed to.
Amendment 42 not moved.
Amendment 43 moved—[Oliver Mundell].
The question is, that amendment 43 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 43 disagreed to.
After section 8
Group 4 is on educational regulations: issues consequential to making of regulations. Amendment 44, in the name of Oliver Mundell, is grouped with amendments 46, 48, 53, 12 and 64.
Like the amendments in the previous group, many of these amendments—in this case, all but one—were presented at stage 2. We then had a lengthy debate and discussion, and the Government went to great lengths to explain why we did not need a catch-up plan for young people, why it was not necessary to ensure that historical data would not be reused when determining future exam grades, and that we did not need to worry about the financial impact of some of the decision-making powers that were being used, because any future Government would, of course, go out of its way to ensure that students were well supported.
I do not believe that we can take anyone at their word on those things, partly because of the John Mason principle and partly because we have lived through a recent pandemic in which students and those who were sitting exams were treated exceptionally poorly. At times, the way that some of the decisions were handled bordered on heartlessness.
Without being unkind, I think that the Deputy First Minister’s biggest mistake during the pandemic was to allow the chaos around the first set of examinations. Young people have gone on, whether to further study or into the world of work, feeling scarred and let down by that process.
Does the member agree that, if we are genuinely to see a recovery from the pandemic, we need a proper analysis of what has happened in our schools and of the impact on young people? Does he agree that that should be accompanied by a proper recovery plan and not just a restatement of previous policies, with people being told that they can now address the even greater needs that are presenting themselves post-pandemic?
The member is absolutely right. As we have seen, the response, the resource and the general commitment from the Government towards education do not match the scale of the challenges that are faced by our young people. This is obviously not something for this debate, but the past 15 years have not been Scotland’s greatest in terms of education. In the past period, the Scottish National Party Scottish Government has been found wanting. At times, it has treated teachers and young people themselves with disdain, dismissing their concerns and saying that existing resources are enough. It has told us how fantastic it is that it has brought in new teachers, but, every time it restates that, it fails to mention that they are just replacing the teachers that it cut—the teachers who were missing during the pandemic, which put our schools under such pressure.
It is important that the bill speaks to those challenges. The very least that our young people deserve is a commitment in the bill, which will be enshrined in law, that they will not be treated badly or disadvantaged by the use of the powers.
I am not expecting an awful lot here. There is one amendment in the group on which I have been able to work with the Government. Amendment 12 proposes a very modest reporting mechanism whereby we will at least know in 12 months’ time how the Government is getting on with delivering electronic devices. I am hopeful that it will be well ahead of target on that. There are many parts of the country where local authorities and others have managed to get devices out to young people, but the fact that we are now two years on from the start of the pandemic and there are young people who still cannot properly access remote learning is a disgrace.
I move amendment 44.
The measures that are set out in amendment 44 would cut across the statutory obligations of the Scottish Qualifications Authority. As I noted at stage 2, the SQA worked closely with partners during the pandemic to ensure that young people were able to achieve fair and credible grades in spite of the disruption caused by Covid. That included informing them of decisions on the timing of the return to an examination diet, with appropriate notice of such decisions taking into account public health advice at the time.
In retrospect, when the Deputy First Minister looks back at that period, does he feel that he got things right? Were mistakes made? Do young people not deserve to know that they will be protected from that in the future?
I have been absolutely candid with Parliament about the mistakes that were made in the SQA exam diet in 2020. If Mr Mundell wants to use the opportunity of the bill going through Parliament to revisit that, I am quite happy to do that, because, in all honesty, I took the best decisions that I thought were available to me on the evidence that was in front of me. I respected an independent examination authority that was undertaking the assessment and adjudicating that process.
I did not think that it was right for ministers to circumvent the law and take away an independent exams body’s responsibility; that was the judgment that I arrived at. I point out that that was the judgment that the secretary of state in England, the minister in Wales and the minister in the north of Ireland arrived at. I did not take a unique decision—I just respected the law. I am a great believer in respecting the law, which is what we have been talking about for a large part of this afternoon.
16:45If Mr Mundell wants to use today as an opportunity to poke away at me about 2020, I have been completely candid with Parliament about the difficulties that I faced in 2020, and I faced up to the challenge that came from his colleagues. Thanks to consideration in Parliament, those challenges were addressed by the way that we responded to the challenges that young people faced, and we addressed them into the bargain.
Does the Deputy First Minister recognise the impact of the decisions that he took and that part of the purpose of the amendments in this group is to talk about that impact and make sure that there is appropriate resource and redress for young people, to ensure that they can recover from the situation, instead of just a restated set of SNP policies that predated the pandemic?
That is where Mr Marra and Mr Mundell are joined at the hip in making the same argument by, in essence, running down Scottish education. [Interruption.] I am sorry, but here we are—the joint runners-down of Scottish education are at it again, and I will not have that this afternoon. There is enormous strength in Scottish education, but the Labour Party and the Conservatives are totally belittling it on a constant basis, and they do no service to young people or educators.
Mr O’Kane is wagging his finger at me, so let me wag my finger back at him. He was involved in a local authority that presided over a good record on education, so why is he ashamed of East Renfrewshire Council’s record when he makes his contributions here, in Parliament?
The reality is that the figures for Fife have gone backwards, the attainment gap has got wider and the number of children who are accessing the sciences has gone down. When I speak to the leader of Fife Council, he tells me that all of that is a direct result of Covid and that progress was being made up until then.
We need to look at the figures in more detail, but the point is that I am more interested in what the recovery plan for education will be, and tackling those issues and problems. It is not about blame; it is about asking what we will do to recover from what was undoubtedly a severe impact on children’s education.
Mr Rowley expresses the challenge in a fundamentally different way from how Mr Mundell and Mr Marra expressed it. Mr Rowley puts his finger on the point that is at the heart of the Government’s Covid recovery strategy, which is that inequality existed at the start of Covid and was exacerbated by Covid. The Government’s Covid recovery strategy, of which the educational strategy is an integral part, is all about addressing the challenges that existed for people as a consequence of Covid.
That does not address the central point that Mr Marra made, which is that if there is a new strategy to deal with the exacerbated effects of the pandemic, why is there no new SNP policy?
The SNP policy is about closing the poverty-related attainment gap. I have just addressed that point in response to Mr Rowley. He made the point that inequalities existed pre-Covid, and the attainment challenge is all about addressing that inequality.
Obviously, if we had a greater range of powers to enable us to tackle poverty more effectively in Scotland—beyond the measures that we are already taking, such as the Scottish child payment, which of course the Conservatives, the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats all voted against in the most recent budget—our task might be made slightly easier as a consequence.
Will the member give way?
I ask Mr Kerr to forgive me; I have given way a number of times.
The measures that are set out in amendment 44 cut across the collaborative approach that was implicit in the work of the SQA and, at this stage, we do not want to pre-empt future legislation on the SQA’s successor or any outcomes from Professor Hayward’s review of the future qualifications system for Scotland.
Will the member give way on that point?
Okay, if I must.
In his earlier party piece—forgive me for calling it that—the Deputy First Minister accused us of—[Interruption.]
Does the member want to make a point?
Yes, I do want to make a point—without the personal abuse from members on the Deputy First Minister’s benches.
On what the Deputy First Minister said earlier about Conservative and, indeed, Labour members running down Scotland’s education, is he mindful of the fact, in the context of what he has said, that the Ken Muir report called for a national conversation and debate about Scottish education? If, every time someone in the chamber stands up to make a cogent point in relation to that national conversation, they are accused of running down education, we will not get very far.
Of course, I am all for a debate about Scottish education, but let us recognise the strength of Scottish education. A record number of young people are going into work, further education, higher education, training or voluntary placements as a consequence of the strength of our education system. Why cannot people such as Mr Kerr celebrate that achievement? Why cannot they come here and say something positive about Scottish education for one minute rather than—whether it is Mr Kerr, Mr Mundell or any of the others among them—belittling the achievements of Scottish education? That is an insult to the teaching staff of Scotland and to the fine young people in our schools.
In my view, amendment 46 would frustrate the effective implementation of regulations in a public health emergency. The implementation of any regulations cannot be contingent on the actions of relevant managers of student accommodation, who will be required to comply with such regulations. The regulations themselves can make provision to ensure that students are to be provided with necessary support.
Throughout the pandemic, we worked in partnership with stakeholders to produce guidance for the safe operation of student accommodation and the support of students staying in that accommodation. That would be our preferred approach in any future public health emergency.
Amendment 48 would require ministers to set out plans for providing additional financial support to students. During the Covid pandemic, we provided substantial support to students, including more than £96 million via hardship funding, digital access support and mental health support, and for student associations. We also worked with stakeholders, including student representatives, to ensure the continued welfare and safety of students. By taking that non-legislative and broader approach, we can ensure that any additional support for students is appropriate to the circumstances at the time and includes non-financial support where appropriate.
On amendment 53, there is already flexibility for individual applications to be made to the education authority for pupils to repeat a year, and those applications are assessed on their merits.
In a completely uncharitable comment, Mr Mundell said, in speaking to the previous group of amendments, that it had to be the Government’s way or no way at all. Amendment 12 proposes reporting on readiness for remote learning. I have further considered that proposal following stage 2. The amendment now places a more proportionate requirement on ministers to publish a report as soon as practicable after 31 July 2023 on the readiness for remote learning, and thereafter as ministers consider it appropriate. I agree with Oliver Mundell that that would give greater assurance across the education sector. On that basis, the Government is happy to support amendment 12. That demonstrates that we are prepared to listen to arguments from the Opposition when they are decent arguments.
Amendment 64 does not take into account the efforts that educators are making to aid pupils and students as we deal with the effects of the pandemic. It would not help to provide any further legal certainty, and it would place additional burdens on educators across all types of educational institution.
For the reasons that I have given, I invite members not to vote in favour of any of the amendments in the group, with the exception of amendment 12, in the name of Oliver Mundell, on remote learning.
That debate ended up being a bit more heated than I expected. Maybe some of the poking and prodding touched a raw nerve.
I do not need to come to the chamber and run down Scottish education; the cabinet secretary has been doing that, along with his colleagues, for 15 years. When they get started on that, they try to suggest that Opposition parties are criticising teachers and young people.
I want to be very clear: I am criticising the Scottish National Party Government, its poor policy approach, the damage that that has done to young people, and the very difficult job that it makes for teachers trying to deliver good-quality education in every part of the country. The amendments in my name are important because the SNP Government cannot be fully trusted to deliver on those things in a future pandemic—it looks at the actions that it took during the Covid pandemic and pats itself on the back. That does not match up with the experience of young people and their families, who found that the support offered was often just not good enough.
Mr Mundell, do you wish to press or withdraw amendment 44?
I want to press the amendment, but not move it, if that makes sense.
Do you mean that you are withdrawing it?
Yes.
Amendment 44, by agreement, withdrawn.
Section 9—Regulations on school boarding accommodation
Amendment 9 moved—[John Swinney].
The question is, that amendment 9 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not vote. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Ms Robison. We will ensure that your vote is recorded.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The robust voting system robustly refused to let me access it. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Mr Mountain. We will ensure that your vote is recorded.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not connect to the voting app. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Ms Todd. We will ensure that your vote is recorded.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I was not connected to the voting app. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Mr Matheson. We will ensure that your vote is recorded.
For
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
Against
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 93, Against 19, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 9 agreed to.
Amendment 45 moved—[Oliver Mundell].
17:00
The question is, that amendment 45 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is closed.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 50, Against 61, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 45 disagreed to.
Section 10—Regulations on student accommodation
Amendment 10 moved—[John Swinney].
The question is, that amendment 10 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is closed.
For
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
Against
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 94, Against 19, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 10 agreed to.
Amendment 46 not moved.
Amendment 47 moved—[Oliver Mundell].
The question is, that amendment 47 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is closed.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 48, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 47 disagreed to
After section 10
Amendments 48 to 50 not moved.
Section 11—Compliance and enforcement
Amendment 51 not moved.
Amendment 52 moved—[Oliver Mundell].
The question is, that amendment 52 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is closed.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 51, Against 62, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 52 disagreed to.
After section 11
Amendment 53 not moved.
Section 12—Procedure for regulations
Amendment 54 has already been debated with amendment 29. Does Stuart McMillan wish to move or not move amendment 54?
I will not move amendment 54.
I wish to move amendment 54.
Amendment 54 moved—[Graham Simpson].
The question is, that amendment 54 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is now closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am not sure whether my vote registered. The app says that there was an error. I would have voted yes.
I can confirm that your vote was recorded, Ms Mochan.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 51, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 54 disagreed to.
Amendment 55 not moved.
After section 12
Amendment 56 not moved.
Section 12A—Regulations: public health declarations
Amendment 57 not moved.
Section 12B—Regulations: further provision about public health declarations
Amendment 58 not moved.
Section 13—Review of regulations
Amendments 59 and 60 not moved.
Amendment 61 moved—[Oliver Mundell].
The question is, that amendment 61 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 50, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 61 disagreed to.
After section 13
Amendment 11 moved—[John Swinney]—and agreed to.
17:15
Amendment 12 was debated with amendment 44. Does Oliver Mundell wish to move or not move amendment 12?
I will not move amendment 12.
I wish to move amendment 12.
Amendment 12 moved—[John Swinney]—and agreed to.
Amendments 62 to 64 not moved.
Section 14—School consultations: meetings and documents
Amendment 65 moved—[Oliver Mundell].
The question is, that amendment 65 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 50, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 65 disagreed to.
Section 28—Mental health: removal of need for witnessing of signature of nominated person
Group 5 is on mental health: named persons. Amendment 3, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is grouped with amendment 4.
The two amendments in the group relate to an issue that arose during the COVID-19 Recovery Committee’s scrutiny of the bill. The background is that the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Act 2003 provides for a named person to be appointed to support someone who is subject to compulsory powers—for example, someone who is detained in hospital or is subject to a compulsory treatment order. As the law stands, the signature of the named person accepting the appointment must be witnessed by a suitably qualified professional, with the intention that the responsibilities of being a named person should be explained to that person.
Section 28 of the bill removes that requirement. That is a welcome change that is supported by stakeholders and all those from whom the committee took evidence. However, the committee also heard in evidence a concern that a named person could be appointed under the new procedure without having a full understanding of the role and the responsibilities that are involved. When we took evidence, Dr Arun Chopra, from the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland, and Dr Roger Smyth, from the Royal College of Psychiatrists in Scotland, agreed that a named person should have to declare that they understand their role. Amendment 3 would require a named person to declare that they understand the role, duties, rights and responsibilities of being a named person.
Amendment 4 is a complementary amendment that requires the Scottish Government to issue guidance to named persons so that they are aware of their responsibilities. The fact that there will not be a person witnessing a named person’s signature leaves a lacuna, which is why it is important that the matter be addressed. When we discussed the issue in the committee, there was a unanimous view from committee members that it should be addressed in the bill, and a unanimous recommendation in our stage 1 report. Accordingly, I hope that these very reasonable amendments will have members’ support.
I move amendment 3.
Amendment 3 proposes that a nominee should declare that
“they understand the role, duties, rights and responsibilities”
that are associated with becoming
“a named person”.
However, mental health legislation does not provide specific duties for named persons, as they vary in each case.
Current legislation already places duties on mental health officers that direct them to seek out, and talk to, a named person, so the potential for a person not to understand the role is minimal. In addition, the statutory code of practice is clear that it would be best practice for the mental health officer, or any other practitioner, to ensure that the nominee is provided with information about the role in a form that is helpful to them. That role will not change.
Legislation only places a statutory duty on a “prescribed person” to act as a witness to the nominee’s signature—nothing else. They are not required to explain the role to the nominee. The checking that a person understands that they have been nominated and that they wish to accept the role is a separate process, which a range of professionals can undertake. The change that amendment 3 proposes would extend the reach of that provision and would be difficult to verify, and it offers no new safeguard.
Amendment 4 would require the Scottish ministers to publish guidance on named persons. That guidance is already available and we are revising its content, in partnership with key stakeholders including the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland.
Given the position that I have just set out, the suggested stage 3 amendments are not required and could actually be unhelpful, as they would introduce more procedure before a role supporting a patient takes effect.
Our intent is to remove a requirement that is currently experienced as disproportionately bureaucratic and might even be a disincentive to taking up the role. I believe that amendments 3 and 4 would take us backwards and so, although I understand the motivations behind them, I ask Murdo Fraser to accept the assurances that I have placed on the record, and not to press the amendments in section 28.
I call Murdo Fraser to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 3.
I thank the Deputy First Minister for his explanation. I listened with great interest to the points that he made. The committee sat in evidence sessions and heard compelling evidence from the experts who came before us as to why amendments such as these would be advantageous. Therefore, I am minded to press amendment 3.
The committee was unanimous in its view that these amendments were required. I was very surprised therefore that, when it came to discussing the point at stage 2, the three SNP members of the committee decided to vote against their own recommendation at stage 1—some would call that behaviour flip-flopping. Those members now have the opportunity to flip-flop back into the right place. I urge them at least to support amendments 3 and 4.
I press amendment 3.
The question is, that amendment 3 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is now closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not get on to my app. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Ms Gosal. We will ensure that that is recorded.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app would not connect. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Mr Whittle. We will ensure that that is recorded.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 46, Against 58, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 3 disagreed to.
Amendment 4 moved—[Murdo Fraser].
The question is, that amendment 4 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 47, Against 62, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 4 disagreed to.
Section 33—Private residential tenancies: discretionary eviction grounds
Group 6 is on tenancies: eviction grounds. Amendment 66, in the name of Edward Mountain, is grouped with amendments 5, 67 and 68.
I remind the Parliament at the outset of my entry in the register of members’ interests. For clarity, I state that my family farming business includes rental properties. The rental income from those properties is critical to the financial security of the core agriculture business. I also remind members that I spent 20 years as a qualified rural surveyor, working in the housing sector, which gave me an in-depth knowledge of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1988, the Rent (Scotland) Act 1984 and the Private Housing (Tenancies) (Scotland) Act 2016.
Over the years, there has been a move towards increasing protection of the tenant, which I believe should be broadly welcome. The difficulty, of course, lies in finding the balance between the owner of the house and the tenant, ensuring that the legislation is equitable for both.
The 2016 act changed the balance in favour of the tenant, whose rights have become more defined, with their position given further protection. Not all private landlords welcomed the 2016 act but those who welcomed it did so on the basis that it retained some mandatory grounds and discretionary grounds for ending a tenancy. That would be changed under the bill.
17:30We need to remember that there are 360,000 rented properties in Scotland, which is about 14 per cent of the total housing stock. We all recognise that housing is in short supply and that we need to keep as many houses as we can available for long-term occupancy. It should worry us that research published by Propertymark shows a 50 per cent reduction in the number of rental properties between 2019 and 2022. It attributes that decline to the 2016 act. Members should be under no illusion: fewer rental properties results in increased rents and increased pressures on social housing, both of which I would like to be avoided.
The pandemic rightly resulted in short-term changes to the way in which we lived our lives. It was right that those included the suspension of the mandatory grounds for landlords to regain possession of rental properties. However, we are past that now, and careful consideration needs to be given to determining what changes should remain.
At stage 2, I challenged the Government’s approach to each of the mandatory grounds for ending a tenancy in the 2016, 1988 and 1984 acts respectively. I thank Mr Swinney and Mr Harvie for engaging with me since then. Members will be happy to know that I do not intend to repeat that process, as it would have led to 40-plus amendments rather than the three that I have lodged in this group. However, I will consider briefly each of the key mandatory grounds that will be changed from the 2016 act.
The main grounds for house owners to take back possession of their houses are: to live in the house themselves; to allow a family member to live in the house; to sell the house with vacant possession; to allow the lender to sell the property if it is foreclosed on; to refurbish the property; to facilitate change of use; or to allow the property to be used for religious purposes. If the property is empty and not being used by the tenant, or if there are rent arrears of three months or more, the landlord can also get it back. Further reasons for that to happen are if the property was let as part of an employment contract and if there is a breach of the tenancy agreement.
I will pick up on the points that Mr Swinney and Mr Harvie deployed to counter my position at stage 2. Mr Swinney said that house owners have to apply to the First-tier Tribunal for Scotland housing and property chamber to get possession of their houses. That is currently done on mandatory grounds and the tribunal has to grant possession. He states in his letter to me that the number of hearings by the First-tier Tribunal is limited and that most cases are resolved outside the tribunal process. However, we know that 77 per cent of first-tier hearings relate to rent arrears, so all the other grounds of possession are relatively minor. Therefore, there is little or no need to change those mandatory grounds to discretionary ones.
Mr Harvie stated that he wanted to protect the right of the tenant to live in a home, but he was unable to explain at what cost to the home owner. In relation to cases in which the owner or a family member wants to live in the house, where tribunals have shown that there is not a major disagreement, Mr Swinney’s argument for making that a discretionary ground falls. Mr Harvie’s argument also stumbles, because putting the tenant’s rights before the owner’s right to live in the house that they have bought and that they look forward to living in is, perhaps, disingenuous.
That is also the case when the property is required for sale with vacant possession. As a surveyor, I can tell members—this is a fairly accurate generalisation—that, if properties sell without vacant possession, they achieve only about 50 per cent of their value. Therefore, Mr Harvie’s proposal to remove that mandatory ground adversely affects the owner’s ability to recoup the real value of the property.
The bill claims to be a Covid recovery bill but, in the case of tenancies, I do not believe that it is. How can a bill that prevents an employer from being able to house an employee be considered as recovery? Remote and rural businesses will be devastated if they cannot use the houses that they have purchased for their workers when previous employees refuse to move out of them.
What happens when the Government’s wish to achieve energy performance certification for all houses across Scotland is driven forward? I do not think that that is feasible, but, if home owners cannot get vacant possession of their properties to do the works that they can afford to do, the target will be wildly missed. In my mind, it is an example of Mr Harvie shooting himself in the foot and paying lip service to climate change.
Before I finish speaking on the grounds for ending tenancies, I will briefly consider rent arrears. Rents often fund other activities, including mortgages, so loss of rental income might result in a mortgage default and repossession. That will definitely happen if it takes nine months or more to resolve an issue and it has to go through a tribunal process, which, prior to the pandemic, was taking at least eight months.
The Government should also not forget how important rents are to Scotland and how they generate income for the Government. Rental income is added to all other income and tax is paid on it at the rate of the other income, so the Government misses out if rent is not paid and properties are not let. All that shows how wrong the proposals are and why my amendments should be agreed to.
The proposals to reform tenancies are opportunistic. If the Government was serious about addressing the issue, it would have dealt with it in a housing bill. Indeed, one has been promised, but no date is known. Only yesterday, Mr Harvie told me that it would be introduced early in the current parliamentary session, so where is it? If the Government had prioritised the issue, it would have started consulting tenants, home owners and landlords, but I do not believe that it has done that.
I must make clear that the bill retrospectively changes the law, which the Parliament should not do lightly. If agreements are reached and both parties have signed up to them, rewriting them and disadvantaging either side is not reasonable or fair.
I clarify that my amendments 66, 67 and 68 seek to remove the proposed changes to the Private Housing (Tenancies) (Scotland) Act 2016, the Housing (Scotland) Act 1988 and the Rent (Scotland) Act 1984. For aficionados of those acts, I should also clarify that I know that the grounds for getting vacant possession are slightly different under each act, but, as much as I would like to go into further detail on why it differs, I suspect that that would appeal to a niche audience only, and I do not see that in front of me.
I seek the support of the Parliament for my amendments. I ask it not to make bad legislation by changing law retrospectively, and to do the right thing by introducing new law in the form of a housing bill that is consulted on properly, which is not the case with the bill.
I move amendment 66.
I agree with the points that Edward Mountain has made about his amendments. When the committee considered the issues at stage 2, it received a joint submission from Scottish Land & Estates, NFU Scotland, the Scottish Association of Landlords and the National Trust for Scotland. All the organisations made significant points about the unintended consequences of the bill.
Scotland has and benefits from a vibrant private rented sector. That is important, because not everyone wants to purchase property and not everybody has access to or wants to live long term in social rented accommodation. Some people want to use the private rented sector because they are living in a location for a short period of time, perhaps due to a work contract. They might be young people who know that they are not going to live in a place for 10 or 20 years and want to flat share with others. We need to have private rented accommodation available, and we need to make that attractive for landlords, as well as to provide reasonable protections for tenants.
The concern, which we have heard from Edward Mountain and many stakeholders, is that what is proposed in the bill does not strike the right balance between the interests of landlords and the interests of tenants. If we shift the balance too far, landlords will simply remove themselves from the market, which will reduce the supply of private property that is available to let. The knock-on effect of that will be that people who want to access property in that market cannot find accommodation, which is a serious unintended consequence that we should be concerned about. I support Edward Mountain’s amendments.
My amendment 5 is a much more narrowly drawn amendment, which intends to tackle a specific issue in relation to rural communities. We know that housing in rural communities, particularly in remote areas, is often in short supply. It is important that rural businesses have access to suitable accommodation for those whom they employ.
The purpose of amendment 5 is to ensure that there is a mandatory eviction ground for a landlord who owns property as part of a rural business, such as a farm or a forestry business, and who might wish to recover possession of that property to provide accommodation for an employee who could otherwise struggle to find anywhere to stay.
We know from experience that, in many rural areas—particularly in remote areas—if accommodation is not offered alongside employment, it is simply not practical for people to take up the offer because there is no accommodation available and nowhere for them to stay.
Amendment 5 seeks to protect a rural business or employer who wants to create employment and provide accommodation to go along with it for their employee. My concern is that, if we do not put such a provision in the bill, there might be unintended consequences. For example, rural landlords who are looking ahead to expand their business, or to replace employees who may leave, might want to have a property available for a future employee. That landlord might decide that it is not worth taking the risk of letting that property if they cannot guarantee that possession will be recovered at the end of the tenancy. The consequence of that is that properties will lie empty, which is a negative unintended consequence for two reasons: the business loses a supply of income, and it cannot be in the interests of public policy that we have much-needed properties lying empty when they could be made available to accommodate families and others.
Amendment 5 is moderate and sensible, and it was supported at stage 2 by NFU Scotland and Scottish Land & Estates. To me, it provides a sensible balance in protecting the interests of rural communities, and I am pleased to put it forward.
I am afraid that amendment 5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, and amendments 66 to 68, in the name of Edward Mountain, fundamentally go against the principles of the bill.
I will first talk about Mr Mountain’s amendments 66 to 68. Like his amendments at stage 2, these amendments seek to remove the provisions that make all grounds for eviction discretionary. That would mean that the tribunal would be obligated to order eviction in certain circumstances. Where the eviction ground would be mandatory, the tribunal would not be able to assess whether eviction was reasonable, and it would be prevented from taking the circumstances of both the landlord and the tenant into account, including the circumstances that both Mr Fraser and Mr Mountain described in the examples that they mentioned.
Both members say that they want us to find the right balance between the interests and the rights of landlords and of tenants. As we set out at stage 2, the tribunal is the correct place to balance the rights of both parties when deciding whether an eviction is reasonable in the circumstances. The tribunal cannot arrive at a decision that is incompatible with the convention rights of either party in determining whether an eviction order should be granted. Our view, as fully endorsed by the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee, is that the position under the temporary legislation should be continued so that all grounds for eviction remain discretionary.
Mr Fraser’s amendment 5 is essentially the same as his amendment on this topic at stage 2. The Government remains of the view that the amendment is not appropriate for a number of reasons. It seeks to create a further mandatory ground for eviction where a landlord seeks to recover possession of a property in order to rent it to an employee. There are already existing grounds to enable a landlord to evict a tenant from a property that is occupied for the purposes of employment where the tenant is no longer an employee. The eviction ground that is being proposed here is also open to abuse, particularly due to its mandatory nature—one employee could find themselves evicted in favour of another.
Is the minister going to address the issue of Covid? This is a Covid bill, but nowhere in his responses to any of the amendments so far have I heard that word.
Although important, those sound like wide-ranging issues that are relevant to the housing market. They should be dealt with in separate legislation, in order to give them due consultation and scrutiny, rather than trying to squeeze them into legislation that seeks only to extend temporary measures in a pandemic. We do not know when pandemics start and end in relation to the law.
17:45
As the Deputy First Minister has said on several occasions, the purpose of the bill includes looking at measures that were brought in on a temporary basis during the pandemic, in the emergency legislation, and determining which of them has longer-term value and should be made permanent. We have reached the view that those measures have proved their worth and should be made permanent.
As was said at stage 2, when the 2016 act was brought in, there was a commitment to a review of all the grounds for repossession after five years, and that period ends in December this year.
I have already confirmed that commitment, and we will ensure that key stakeholders are consulted in the development of that work. It is right for us to fully consider the grounds for eviction together in a coherent way.
For all the reasons that I have set out, I urge Mr Fraser not to move amendment 5, so that all grounds for eviction can be reviewed together in the months ahead. I also urge Mr Mountain not to press amendment 66 and not to move amendments 67 and 68, because tribunal discretion enables the circumstances of landlords and tenants to be taken into account. If those amendments are moved, I urge members to reject them.
I call Edward Mountain to wind up, and to press or withdraw amendment 66.
There are a few points in those statements that I found really interesting. Mr Greene’s point that those issues are about housing and not Covid is particularly appropriate.
Perhaps the minister would like to address the issue that, during the pandemic, money was made available to cover tenancy rent shortfalls for both the tenant and the landlord. I assume that, as the Government is running the eviction measure forward, that money will continue to run forward. It would only be equitable to do that. I am happy to give way to the minister if he wants to answer that question.
I am happy to do so, but, like Mr Greene, Mr Mountain is perhaps conflating the measures that were necessary on an emergency basis during the pandemic with the separate question of which of the changes that were introduced in the emergency legislation have proved to be of on-going worth and should be made permanent.
Particularly in relation to housing policy, the Scottish Government has repeatedly said that we want to close the gap in outcomes between the social and private rented sectors. We believe that making permanent the measures that were brought in through emergency legislation is an appropriate decision to bring to Parliament. Those measures had already proved their worth for many years in the social rented sector and, in the past couple of years, have proved their worth in the private rented sector.
I am not sure that the minister answered the question about whether the Government is rolling forward a measure without rolling forward the funding for it. The Government is rolling it forward because of Covid but not saying that it is because of Covid.
Murdo Fraser was also right in his comment. It is about addressing the balance. I do not need to remind members in this chamber about the importance of rural housing and housing across Scotland. It is not good to see our housing stock being reduced. Members should not forget that the number of rented properties—360,000 homes or 14 per cent of our housing stock—has already been reduced as a direct result of the 2016 act.
Again, Mr Fraser made an interesting point on rural issues. The rural housing problem is well known to those of us in rural constituencies. It is really difficult to find a house. I do not need to give an example, but I will give one anyway. In the region that I represent, there is a business that would expand drastically, but it cannot do so, because it cannot find enough housing. Those are the issues that we need to address.
In addition, I do not understand the research that has been done to support the Government’s position. Let us talk about the 1984 act. When was the last tenancy from the 1984 act? It is a bit of a rhetorical question, but it would have been in 1988. Anyone can work out that the chances of 1984 act tenancies being around are very slim and almost nil, because they would have expired by this stage.
Finally, I think that the big mistake with this section is that we should instead have brought forward a housing bill. I support bringing forward a housing bill—I want to have that debate. However, to change things midway through, and say that you are going to review the grounds at the end of the year when you have changed them now, really is disingenuous.
I press amendment 66.
The question is, that amendment 66 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is now closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am unable to connect to the app. If I were able to connect, I would have voted no.
Thank you, Ms Todd. I will ensure that that is recorded.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not connect. I would have voted no.
Thank you, Mr Cole-Hamilton. I will ensure that that is recorded.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. It is the same here—I could not connect. I would have voted no.
I will make sure that that is recorded.
As a general comment, though, it would be helpful if members were in the chamber slightly ahead of the end of the vote, which might ensure that they do connect to the app—but I will pass no judgment this time round.
For
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 24, Against 86, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 66 disagreed to.
After section 33
Amendment 5 moved—[Murdo Fraser].
The question is, that amendment 5 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is now closed.
I call Ruth Maguire, who is online.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I lost connectivity there; I would have voted no.
Thank you, Ms Maguire. We will ensure that that is recorded.
For
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 28, Against 85, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 5 disagreed to.
Section 34—Assured tenancies: discretionary eviction grounds
I call amendment 67, in the name of Edward Mountain, which has already been debated with amendment 66. Edward Mountain, do you want to move or not move the amendment?
There is no point in my moving amendment 67 if the current law is not being amended. I will not move amendment 67 or amendment 68.
I have to call both amendments in turn, Mr Mountain, but thank you for your attempt to be helpful.
Amendment 67 not moved.
Section 35—Tenancies under the Rent (Scotland) Act 1984: discretionary eviction grounds
Amendment 68 not moved.
After section 37B
We move to group 7, on tenancies: expiry and reform of law. Amendment 69, in the name of Edward Mountain, is grouped with amendments 70 and 71.
The chamber has filled up and some members might have missed what I said earlier. I am happy to repeat some of it, but I will keep my comments reasonably brief.
Amendments 69, 70 and 71 try to get the Government to focus its mind and be honest about its intention. It is my opinion that retrospectively changing legislation is not a good way to do business. Indeed, it is lazy, if proper consultation and, better still, post-legislative scrutiny have not been carried out. This Parliament has an appalling track record when it comes to post-legislative scrutiny. Although the fault might lie at the door of committees, it is unarguable that that is the case.
Only yesterday, Mr Harvie said that the Government intends to introduce a new housing bill in the Parliament. As yet, we have seen no sign of that bill. That is not unusual. The previous session was littered with promised bills that did not happen, such as the crofting law reform bill, the inshore fisheries bill and the good food nation bill, to name but three. We need to understand when the Government will introduce the new tenancy and housing bill.
Mr Harvie said that he could not support amendments because a new pandemic might come along. If that happened, I would understand why legislative targets were missed, but that is an excuse. It is pure political dissembling.
Amendment 69 would place an obligation on the Government to introduce in the Scottish Parliament, by 1 October 2024, a bill to reform private housing tenancy law. As that date is two thirds of the way through this session, my amendment would ensure that the bill would go through the parliamentary process by the end of the session. It is a simple ask, which meets Mr Harvie’s stated timescales, to which he does not seem able to commit. The Parliament should force his hand and make the Government honour its principles and the promises that it made about the proposed bill.
Amendment 70 provides for a sunset provision to come into force if the Government agrees to amendment 69 and reverses the changes to the mandatory grounds in the Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill. It is just another way of focusing the Government’s mind on the day job. I will not move amendment 70 if amendment 69 is not agreed to—indeed, amendment 70 does not have to be agreed to if amendment 69 is agreed to; that might be acceptable to other parties in the Parliament.
Amendment 71 provides for a sunset provision on all part 4 changes, with a date of June 2024. Again, the aim is to focus the Government’s mind on the bill that it promised to deliver without saying how and when. Agreeing to amendment 71 would demonstrate proper parliamentary procedure in holding the Government to account. I understand why the Government might object, but it is for non-Government parties such as mine to keep the Government focused on what it is doing. Amendment 71 would do just that.
I move amendment 69.
Amendments 70 and 71, in the name of Mr Mountain, appear to have the same ultimate effect as amendments 66 to 68 in the previous group, by expiring part 4 of the bill in June 2024. Amendments 66 to 68 would have reinstated mandatory eviction grounds now; amendments 70 and 71 would do that too, but at a later date.
Therefore, the arguments that were made against amendments 66 to 68 also apply here. Part 4 of the bill ensures that tenants are not evicted unreasonably; it also ensures that all the circumstances of the case—those relating to the tenant and those relating to the landlord—can be considered by the tribunal in any eviction proceedings.
18:00Part 4 of the bill also introduces the pre-action protocol as a permanent measure, which is intended to assist landlords and tenants. I am aware of Mr Mountain’s concerns regarding those provisions applying to existing tenancies. The provisions only change the law for future eviction proceedings. The Scottish Government considers that that is a proportionate approach that is designed to prevent the unreasonable eviction of tenants.
As well as seeking to remove that reasonableness test and the protocol, Mr Mountain has lodged amendment 69, which seeks to oblige the Scottish ministers to introduce primary legislation to reform the law on residential tenancies, but without specifying what aspects should be reformed. Creating a duty in primary legislation to enact future unspecified primary legislation is a very unusual approach, and it is not one that has normally been adopted by Parliament.
As was reaffirmed to Mr Mountain at stage 2, and as I said to him in a meeting this week, the Government has already committed to legislation to reform the law on residential tenancies, which will deliver a new deal for tenants. Mr Mountain’s amendment 69 is therefore completely unnecessary.
For that reason, I urge Mr Mountain not to press amendment 69 and not to move amendments 70 and 71 and, instead, to work with us as we move forward with our commitment to examine the current private rented tenancy regime over the course of this session of Parliament, building on the constructive discussions that we have had only this week.
I call Edward Mountain to wind up, and to press or withdraw amendment 69.
It does not surprise me that the Government is shying away from agreeing to a timescale for its tenancy reform bill, which is all that I am trying to achieve. Not to do so, and to simply say that it is going to review at the end of the year the situation regarding mandatory and discretionary tenancy grounds is not helpful.
I say to the minister that if he is going to force more people to go through the First-tier Tribunal process—there is an argument for doing that; I am not saying that it is wrong—it will clog up the system. I would not have a problem with that, if the Government was going to provide more funds to the First-tier Tribunal, but at this stage, as the Government does not even know the full extent of the First-tier Tribunal cases and the length of time that it will take to sort them out, I think that its approach is entirely wrong. Therefore, I will proceed with my amendments, on the grounds that I like to see the Government being held to account.
I press amendment 69.
The question is, that amendment 69 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 27, Against 83, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 69 disagreed to.
Amendment 70 not moved.
Amendment 71 moved—[Edward Mountain].
The question is, that amendment 71 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 26, Against 86, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 71 disagreed to.
We move on to group 8, which is on tenancies: rent freeze. Amendment 72, in the name of Mercedes Villalba, is grouped with amendment 73.
I draw members’ attention to my entry in the register of members’ interests, as I am a member of Living Rent and ACORN tenants union.
My amendments 72 and 73 would provide urgent support for tenants right now by introducing an emergency rent freeze from the date that the bill receives royal assent until 31 December 2024. A rent freeze cannot wait, because we are in the midst of a cost of living crisis that is seeing ever-greater financial pressure being exerted on households across Scotland, and one of the greatest costs facing many households is rent.
Even before the current cost of living crisis, rents across the country were rising at a rate that was increasingly unaffordable for many tenants. In the past year alone, average rents have risen by 8.5 per cent, with much higher increases in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee. That is part of a longer-term trend, with average rents rising by nearly 35 per cent over the past decade.
I totally agree that 35 per cent is unreasonable. However, inflation is at 9 per cent or thereabouts; does the landlord not need to pay more for maintenance and such things?
Is the member really on the side of landlords and not his constituents?
I thank John Mason for his question. I am pleased to hear that he recognises the cost of living crisis and the rising inflation facing workers and tenants across the country—and his constituents. My priority in moving amendments 72 and 73 is to alleviate the pressures on renters. As Mr Mason will find out if he reads the amendments, an exception clause is built in for cases where landlords would face “severe financial hardship”. The amendments are therefore reasonable and account for individual circumstances.
Members will know from contact with their constituents that successive rent hikes are taking their toll on tenants. At stage 2, I shared some tenants’ testimonies with the COVID-19 Recovery Committee, and I would like to share further testimonies with the Parliament today. One tenant who reported a rent hike said:
“Our landlord increased our rent from £1,250 to £1,318 per month to bring it in line with market rates. On top of that, our flat is very poorly insulated and our gas bill has tripled.”
Another tenant explained:
“The landlord increased the rent from £1,760 to £2,400, an increase of £640. The reason he gave was that it’s below current market value. We can’t afford to stay and are looking to move but are struggling to find somewhere else in our budget.”
I believe that the final testimony that I would like to share with members today underlines just how vital it is that we support tenants now. The tenant said:
“My landlord raised my rent from £545 to £688 because he found out that the universal credit limit had been raised.”
The experience of those tenants emphasises that we must tackle rip-off rents if we are to truly build a fair recovery from the Covid-19 pandemic. The Scottish Government, by its own admission, recognises—
Will the member take an intervention?
Yes, I will give way to, er, that man.
“That man” thanks Mercedes Villalba for allowing an intervention. What consultation has she done with landlords groups about the effect of her amendments 72 and 73? Clearly, there is a risk that they could drive landlords out of the market.
I thank Mr Simpson for his intervention, and I apologise for forgetting his name.
I do not recognise that there will be a loss of housing in the sector. Although private landlords can seek to evict a tenant on the ground that they wish to sell their property, the Coronavirus (Scotland) Act 2020 made that ground of eviction a discretionary one. The bill makes that change permanent, so it would be wrong to assume that a private landlord has an automatic right to sell—the position is actually more complex than that.
Although landlords are currently limited to seeking a rent increase once a year, there is no restriction on the level of increase that they can propose. It is clear that the right of tenants to challenge unfair rent increases is not preventing above-inflation rises. Indeed, in its consultation on “A New Deal for Tenants”, the Scottish Government acknowledged that adjudication has
“not achieved the desired policy outcome.”
That is why tenants need urgent support now, until the Scottish Government brings forward its national system of rent controls, which it promised to do by the end of 2025. Tenants cannot endure up to another four years of rent hikes. An emergency rent freeze is an immediate but temporary measure to support tenants now.
I reassure members that this is not a political stunt, an ill-thought-through proposal or mischief making, and that it is not incompetent or unworkable, as some members have suggested to their supporters. This is a reasonable measure, and it is a minimum measure that enjoys support from tenants and workers, who are bearing the brunt of rent costs now. That is why members have received letters urging them to support the amendments from Scotland’s tenants union, Living Rent, and from the Scottish Trades Union Congress, whose member trade unions represent workers across the country.
Ultimately, we need a national system of rent controls, but we cannot afford to do nothing until then. An emergency rent freeze would provide interim relief for tenants who are struggling with rent costs now.
I move amendment 72.
A number of members wish to contribute to the debate.
The bill makes permanent some vital protections for tenants from eviction that were brought in during the pandemic. Specifically, it removes the mandatory grounds for granting evictions and it mandates that landlords follow the pre-action protocol before they can start eviction proceedings. Given the importance of those provisions, Scottish Greens cannot support either of the amendments in the group.
18:15As has been pointed out previously, it is true that, in 2020, the Greens introduced an amendment to the emergency legislation to which this bill refers, proposing a rent freeze. There are two critical differences between that amendment and what is being proposed today. First, at that point, we were at the height of a public health emergency. The European convention on human rights allows for derogation from the article 1, protocol 1 rights in the case of a public health crisis. That allows us to do what would, at other times, essentially be unlawful.
Secondly, at that point, during the first lockdown, the tribunals were closed, and almost no evictions took place. Amendment 72 would be highly likely to lose a court challenge, which would delay the whole bill past the point at which the current temporary but important measures would elapse, and potentially strike down the tenancy section entirely until the issue is rectified.
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
My contribution will be very short, so I am sure that the member will be able to respond in closing.
Potentially striking down those protections would not be in tenants’ interests—it would be a backward step. Even if the amendment were to survive challenge, it would incentivise landlords to find legal grounds on which to evict their tenants and then jack up rents. That was not an option that was available to landlords in 2020 because, as I mentioned, the tribunals were closed.
Labour had the opportunity to work with the Scottish Government to bring forward workable amendments, and I regret—
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
Yes.
I did seek to work with the Government. I was met with some support, and an acknowledgement that we were facing an emergency situation and that a cap on increasing rents would benefit renters, but I did not receive any constructive counter-proposals or any suggestions for how I could strengthen or improve the amendments.
I would be grateful if the member could, in her closing contribution, address my specific points about the European convention on human rights and the potential for the amendments in this group to strike down an entire section of the bill that includes essential protections for tenants.
There are protections already in the bill that we need to preserve. The Scottish Government has already alluded to the fact that further action is coming. It is immensely frustrating that we cannot move more quickly on permanent rent controls, but getting such provisions right in forthcoming legislation means that they would survive the legal challenge that I am sure will be inevitable. There are steps being taken right now, including in the bill, to protect tenants, and I will not let these amendments compromise our ability to deliver on that.
I speak in support of amendments 72 and 73, because tenants, including those who live in my Central Scotland region, need urgent protection now. I am grateful to Mercedes Villalba for lodging amendments at stage 2 and for bringing revised proposals to the chamber today, because Government and Parliament should be taking every opportunity to protect tenants. That is what Mercedes Villalba is attempting to do, and thanks to her we all have the opportunity to vote for the workable and proportionate measures in front of us today.
Rent is one of the greatest costs facing our constituents. Renters are among the people who were worst hit by the pandemic, and they are now at the sharp end of the cost of living crisis. I am not sure what world Ross Greer is living in, but I point out to him that the emergency is not over—it is now on steroids.
Will the member give way on that point?
I will continue, if the member does not mind.
The promise of rent pressure zones and rent controls is, of course, welcome. However, action is needed now to protect tenants from the type of rip-off rents that we have heard about from Living Rent’s members. I listened carefully to those testimonies at stage 2. It is regrettable that Green members did not bring forward any proposals. They criticise Mercedes Villalba for having a proposal. Where is their proposal?
Our proposals are what is in the bill, because we were the ones who put the work in, back in 2020, to put in place temporary measures that the bill will now make permanent. I would be grateful if the member could address this point. She says that we are still in a cost of living crisis. I absolutely agree, but the specific crisis that would, as I mentioned, allow for derogation from the ECHR is a public health emergency.
Can the member explain how we would be able to defend her proposed measures in court, given that we are no longer in a period that would be counted as a public health emergency and we would therefore be breaching the A1P1 rights?
Ross Greer is scaremongering. The measures will not contravene the ECHR, and Mercedes Villalba will address that point in more detail when she closes.
An emergency rent freeze is not radical or dangerous; it is reasonable and is the very least that we should be doing to make Covid recovery a reality for tenants.
I rather admired what the Scottish Greens brought to the table back in 2020. Their amendments were good. Amendments 72 and 73 today are very similar, but have been strengthened. Something has happened to the Scottish Greens that should concern us all. The Scottish Greens were invited into Government after proposing those amendments but have somehow managed to lose their way since they entered Bute house. That is indeed worrying.
I read a blog on social media today by the Green MSP Ariane Burgess, who led the charge against universal free school meals just a couple of weeks ago. She says that the amendments are not fit for purpose and talks them down, but she also says that the Greens are “blazing a trail” in Government. I am afraid that it is a trail of broken promises; it is not good enough.
Members have made not unreasonable points in expressing concerns about landlords. Mercedes Villalba has addressed those points. Her amendments are balanced and proportionate. We know that landlords in Scotland cannot evict tenants simply because they want to put the rent up.
Ross Greer might want to think about the comments made today by the anti-poverty campaigner Ashley McLean, who has taken to social media to say:
“As one of the people who helped write the housing section of the @scottishgreens manifesto, I’m hugely disappointed in their decision to vote down @LabourMercedes rent freeze proposals.”
Others have said that rent controls are desperately needed by 2025, but that tenants need protection in the interim.
Perhaps we need to have a referendum on a rent freeze. I think that Mercedes Villalba has brought competent, proportionate and reasonable amendments to the chamber. It will be more than a shame if we see a pattern developing in which the Greens leave their principles at the door, come into the chamber and frighten people by saying that the bar is too high or that they see a legal challenge.
I thank Living Rent for its campaign and the STUC for its briefing and for reminding us that the issue affects workers in all our constituencies. I thank Mercedes Villalba and I hope that colleagues will think for themselves today, look beyond their whip sheets and absolutely back the amendments.
When someone lodges amendments to a bill such as this, especially amendments as serious as these, they should have done their research and they should have consulted. It is clear that no consultation has been done on the amendments. When we talk about freezing rents, whether that be for a short period or permanently, we must look at what the effect of that will be.
The Parliament has a cross-party group on housing, which I convene and which is looking at exactly this subject and aims to produce a report. It is not easy; it is very detailed. I can tell Monica Lennon and Mercedes Villalba that there is a lack of data on rents across Scotland. The whole question of affordability is very difficult to answer: it is not clear. Mercedes Villalba has failed to make the case in her two amendments as to why we should have a rent freeze right now and until 2024. She has not made that case.
I ask Graham Simpson, for the record, whether he would ever be in favour of a rent freeze. When would be the right time to bring in a rent freeze?
If Monica Lennon had listened to me, she would know that the cross-party group on housing is looking at that very subject. We have detailed work to do. Our report will go to the Government, presumably to Mr Harvie, who can take the analysis that we have done. It should be ready sometime after the summer and will be a detailed report, written in conjunction with experts in the field.
Amendments 72 and 73 appear to have been rushed. There has clearly been no consultation with the sector and the unintended consequences could be severe. I will close by saying something that I do not say often. I agree with Ross Greer—
Members: Oh!
I apologise to colleagues, but I think that Mr Greer has, strangely, got something right. There could be a legal challenge if the amendments were agreed to. We do not support the bill, but those who do should take that very seriously indeed.
I support amendments 72 and 73, in the name of my friend Mercedes Villalba, a member for North East Scotland, because of the criticality and urgency with which we need to address the cost of living crisis that is facing hundreds of thousands of Scots. I am afraid that we simply cannot wait until 2025, because too many people will be financially crippled by that point. That will harm us all; it will harm our communities and rend the social fabric of Scotland itself.
Since 2010, rents in Glasgow are up by 41 per cent while average wages are down by 3 per cent in real terms. That is being further compounded by the pressure of inflation, which is now topping 10 per cent. That cannot hold.
During the pandemic, I unfortunately found myself unemployed. As a mortgage holder, I had the luxury of having a six-month mortgage holiday. That was vital to ensure that I did not lose my flat and end up homeless. Unfortunately, private renters and even social renters are often not in that luxurious position. That is why this Parliament must act to defend the weakest and those who have lost out most during the pandemic. We have seen an unprecedented transfer of wealth from the poorest to the richest. Huge surpluses were accumulated by those with assets, while those who are barely able to make ends meet found themselves plunging further and further into financial distress, with all the psychological torment that that entails.
We saw further pressure being heaped on that situation when the UK Government cut universal credit by £20 a week—money that was vital for me to make ends meet. About 83,000 Glaswegians are affected by that £1,000 a year being ripped out of their income and it is enough to tip them over the edge into arrears and a situation in which they are vulnerable to eviction and to losing their tenancies. That is not sustainable in our economy and, with £86 million a year being taken out of the Glasgow economy, it is not good enough. This Parliament must act today to safeguard those people.
The proposals in amendments 72 and 73 make economic sense. We have some of the highest housing costs as a share of household income in Europe—indeed, in the world. That is unsustainable. It is also a reason why Scotland’s economy is so unproductive: because so much of our national income is tied up in housing costs. Often, that money goes to people who collect rents and do not offer anything to our economy. They do not invent things or create products, goods or services that add value to our economy.
That is why we need to control the situation and push that money into productive areas of economic development. It is why we need to help to redress the balance, moving income back from the richest—those who own the investment assets—to the people who rely on earned income to make ends meet and who go out into the economy and buy goods and services. The measure would support economic recovery.
The argument about article 1 of protocol 1 of the ECHR being used is a bogus, straw-man argument that has been used multiple times by, ironically, landlordism interests to try to prevent increased protection for consumers. We have seen it attempted, but it has not succeeded once anywhere. I do not know of a single case that has been successful. To rely on such an overused and abused argument is really shameful on the part of the Scottish Greens.
Even in 2009, in Ireland, when all repossessions were effectively banned until 2013 and tens of thousands of people stopped paying their mortgages, in effect living rent free, not one case went to the European Court of Human Rights on the basis that the law did not allow a remedy for property owners. I do not think that that argument is justifiable, and it is shameful for it to be presented from the left of politics in this country. That is why we need to take a stand to defend the weakest in our society. I expect better from all parliamentarians who believe in the rights of social justice.
I will keep my contribution short. I think that Mercedes Villalba may have misdirected herself in law. There are controls for rent under the Housing (Scotland) Act 2014, the Housing (Scotland) Act 1988, the Rent (Scotland) Act 1984 and the Private Housing (Tenancies) (Scotland) Act 2016.
18:30I offered to discuss with the member how those controls work and how rent increases can be appealed and reduced. If she would like to come and find out how rents being put up to unreasonable levels can be stopped, the offer remains. There is a system and people should use it. The member should not say, I am afraid, that it does not exist, because it does.
I speak in favour of amendments 72 and 73. When Mercedes Villalba lodged her stage 2 amendments, I was shocked by the examples that she gave. When the Deputy First Minister said that there were problems with those amendments, I made the point to him that the Scottish Government would surely not sit back and ignore examples of rents going through the roof. Mercedes Villalba withdrew her amendment that day in order to try and talk to the Government and address the issue.
They say that a bit of power can go to your head, but the Tories lining up with the Greens to not do anything about rents spiralling out of control is unbelievable; that cannot be allowed to happen. What is the emergency here? The emergency is that we are living in the middle of a cost of living crisis, which all members have mentioned. Members constantly say that people are having to choose between food, heating and getting transport to work.
We are in the middle of this, and it is shocking for any landlord to think that they can offset their increased cost of living by passing it on to poor people who are in the rented market. Something has to give. I am proud that Mercedes Villalba has brought up the issue again and lodged the amendments, because the message is that it is not acceptable for landlords to think that they can pile on rent and end up making the poorest people in society even poorer.
For the Greens to take the position that they are taking, when they have tried in the past to be a champion for tenants against the landlords who would exploit them, is absolutely appalling.
None of Mr Rowley’s colleagues has addressed our concern about the danger of the amendments resulting in that entire section striking down the bill, beyond Mr Sweeney saying that it simply would not happen. Is Mr Rowley aware of any country that is subject to the ECHR that has successfully introduced an emergency rent freeze?
The mover of the amendments, Mercedes Villalba, tried to intervene on Ross Greer to answer that question, but he would not take the intervention. I am sure that she will address that point when she sums up.
At stage 2, when the amendments were lodged in a different shape and form, the point was made that they were difficult to agree to and, as a result, the member withdrew the amendment in order to speak to ministers about addressing the issue.
The key issue is that vulnerable tenants will be exploited, and are being exploited, by landlords who think that they can offset their increased cost of living by passing it on to the poorest people in our communities up and down Scotland. That is not acceptable, and that is what has to be addressed.
I am squarely behind my colleague Mercedes Villalba and my other colleagues in the Labour Party. A rent freeze is desperately needed now. We cannot wait for yet more jam tomorrow; the cost of living crisis stings. The Social Justice and Social Security Committee has heard evidence about debt and low income, and as part of that evidence, we heard that debt advisers are no longer able to
“help people to pay off traditional debts because we are having to advise them on how to retain their house and put food in their mouths. It is that alarming.”—[Official Report, Social Justice and Social Security Committee, 28 April 2022; c 10.]
It is alarming. Advisers are not spending time helping people to pay off credit, as they might once have done; they now have to spend their time helping people to pay off what they would have called priority debt: rent, council tax and fuel. Those advisers also told us that they cannot sleep at night because they face the same problems—the same rent hikes and the same debt—that they advise people about. That is pervasive, widespread and oppressive, and we cannot tolerate it in a civilised society.
We also heard that sheriffs are making up for lost time.
I say to members, including my colleague Ross Greer, that the emergency is not over for people who are living with rent hikes and rent increases; it is escalating. I also say to my colleague Ross Greer that an affordable, accessible, safe and secure home is a human right. The right to adequate housing was recognised as part of the right to an adequate standard of living in the 1948 United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights and in the 1966 International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. It was later included in many other international human rights treaties.
We cannot pick and choose which parts of the legislation we want to support. Housing is a human right and, as rents increase and people cannot afford to pay them, people are unlikely to be able to keep the roof over their head.
Pam Duncan-Glancy says that we cannot pick and choose which parts of human rights we can comply with. That is precisely the point that Ross Greer has been trying to make. If we have to strike a balance between those that protect people’s human right to adequate housing and the A1P1 property rights, there will be a range of views about what the balance should be. However, if we are going to strike that balance, we need to be able to answer this question: how do we prove that it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate end? I am not convinced that the amendment has fully answered that question, but I am determined that the Government will answer it in developing an effective national system of rent controls.
I am deeply disappointed, because I know that Patrick Harvie understands a human rights-based approach and that we cannot pit one human right against another. We have to respect the human rights of everyone, and that starts by ensuring that people have the very basics, such as a roof over their head. We are dealing with people right now who cannot afford to keep a roof over their head. Simply saying that the Government will wait and bring in rent controls at some point in the future is not good enough. People cannot afford to keep their home. Until we protect that in the midst of a cost of living crisis, we cannot say that we are a nation that is protecting human rights.
I want to begin on a note of common ground. Monica Lennon in particular wanted to thank everyone who had campaigned on the issue, raised awareness of it, and raised challenge politically. I think that that has brought about the political context that has allowed the Government to commit to reintroducing an effective national system of rent controls. Even just a few years ago, that might have been thought to be politically unachievable. It is thanks to the hard work of many campaigners throughout the country that that possibility has become a reality, now that I have the opportunity to implement that policy.
Mercedes Villalba is, of course, absolutely right to highlight a critically important issue in relation to the current cost of living crisis. I know that the issue has provoked a great deal of interest from those who oppose outright the Government’s ambitious and radical programme to introduce rent controls and from those who will confidently say that we are not doing enough, or not doing it fast enough. The issue is of interest to both sets of people, and I hope that the Presiding Officer will understand that I want to respond in some detail.
I strongly refute the idea that we are doing nothing now. The bill contains measures that will make a difference to tenants. We have taken other measures outside legislation that will make a difference to tenants, and we are doing much more. Indeed, the level of rents was a major concern for me long before we encountered the current period of extreme financial pressure that the country is now living through. That is why I have been making the case for an effective system of rent controls for over a decade now, and that is why the Bute house agreement specifically sets out that we will deliver a new deal for tenants, including implementing rent controls, during this parliamentary session.
Much of what we have heard amounts to arguments in favour of that policy, but it does not show how amendment 72 can be workable.
We are now working at pace to go through the necessary process to ensure that we make good on our commitment in ways that provide robust and lasting benefits.
The intention behind Mercedes Villalba’s amendments 72 and 73 is to prevent a private landlord from serving notice to increase rent for an assured tenancy or a private residential tenancy from the day of the bill receiving royal assent until the end of December 2024. The effect of that would be a default, national freeze on private landlords being able to increase rents for a period of around 30 months.
I know that there will be people who think that that provides the solution that tenants need now but unfortunately, in reality, it would not. I have listened carefully to Ms Villalba’s arguments and I share her sense of urgency—as should we all—but I have to be honest with members and the public that any attempt to use the Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill to achieve a quick-fix solution would fail and would do more harm than good.
The proposal would constitute the imposition of sweeping rent control with very little notice given to landlords and tenants, and no opportunity to weigh up evidence on the impact and proportionality of the measures. Why is such consultation with stakeholders important? First, there are practical benefits to consultation: it will help us to understand the pattern and root causes of the rent rises, develop workable solutions that will address the problem effectively and assess the impact of those proposals on landlords and tenants.
The minister said that Mercedes Villalba was trying to get a quick fix, but would he not accept that he is working with people in the SNP who, four years ago, could have supported my member’s bill to protect renters from exorbitant rent increases and that, if they had, we would have been a lot further forward than we are today?
There is a great deal of my job, whether it is tenants’ rights, zero carbon buildings or other parts, that I wish had been started 10, 20 or 30 years ago. We do not have a time machine and we are where we are. I have the opportunity to do what can be done to achieve a lasting benefit. However, I am not willing to risk the kind of unintended consequences that I was just speaking about.
One of my main worries about the sweeping nature of amendment 72 is that it would prompt landlords to bring tenancies to an end and restart new ones, simply as a way of raising rents. I know that such a desire in itself is not a ground for an eviction, but, as MSPs, we have all heard too many experiences from our constituents about eviction grounds being abused in this way. That is why, as I said earlier, we have already committed to undertaking a review of all grounds for eviction, once the five-year period of operation ends in December 2022. The unintended consequences would undermine the purpose of the amendment, which could result in an increase in evictions and homelessness, in a bill that otherwise strengthens the protection against evictions.
I recognise the minister’s sincere concern about unintended consequences around evictions. Does he not recognise that the lack of legislative change this year—I am not saying that he is not doing research and preparation on rent controls, but they will not come in this year, because there is nothing on the table—will mean that landlords will continue to increase rents, which will cause evictions because people will be unable to afford their homes and will have to move out? Either way, we have the problem of evictions, but with my proposal, we could prevent some of that.
I absolutely agree that we have the problem. What we do not have is the solution—amendment 72 is not the solution, for some of the reasons that I have set out and because of the unintended consequences that I am quite convinced Mercedes Villalba would not want to see happen.
Beyond the question of unintended consequences, given that rent control will engage the convention rights of both landlords and tenants, consultation is necessary to help us to develop proportionate rent control measures that will appropriately balance the interests of landlords and tenants.
As we have reiterated throughout the process, we have committed to implementing an effective national system of rent controls during this session of Parliament. We are doing the hard work to ensure that the model that we deliver is evidence based and robust against legal challenge. This is not scaremongering; it is simply recognising that the law is the law. Bearing in mind that a legal challenge could delay the implementation of the entire bill, we have to do the hard work that is necessary to ensure that the model is robust against legal challenge. I know that there will be people who are disappointed about that but, for those reasons, we cannot in good conscience support amendments 72 and 73.
18:45As someone who has been making the case for reforms of the private rented sector for many years, and as someone who now has the opportunity to make progress that has been a long time coming, I welcome the fact that this agenda now has wide and growing support. What has happened to the Scottish Greens, incidentally, is that we have gained the ability, as part of the Bute house agreement and the programme for government, to put these radical measures into practice.
When the Labour Party was in government, it facilitated a massive unregulated explosion of the private rented sector, while many of us warned of the consequences. It is obviously welcome that the Labour Party now accepts that it got that wrong, but it needs to understand that a quick fix simply will not work, and that this Government—the first in decades with the determination to introduce effective rent controls—is doing the work that is necessary to fix the broken system.
Private tenants are facing extraordinary financial circumstances. Tenants should be aware of the rights that they have now to challenge unfair rent increases imposed on them by their landlord. There are strict processes set out in law that a landlord must follow if they want to increase rent. Rent adjudication rights have been in place in Scotland since 2017, meaning that a tenant can apply to have their increase adjudicated where they think that it is unfair, but those rights are not well used. To ensure that people are aware of those rights and make use of them, I have instructed officials to work with tenant representatives to take forward a further awareness-raising campaign on tenants’ rights, with the key aim of increasing the use of and access to rent adjudication. That is the process under which tenants already have the right to challenge rent rises imposed on them by their landlords. As part of that process, I will listen carefully to how we can build on the way in which rent adjudication works.
In summary, although I cannot support amendments 72 and 73, for the reasons that I have set out, I hope that what this debate demonstrates is that we understand and share the sense of urgency and are taking the action that is needed. However, that action must be informed by evidence, so that it is robust, stands the test of time and actually works in practice, because that is what tenants need. I must therefore urge Mercedes Villalba not to press amendment 72 or move amendment 73. If she does, I urge members to reject those amendments.
I thank everybody who has spoken in favour of amendments 72 and 73, and I also thank the minister for his response. I am disappointed that I was unable to intervene on his colleague on the case law relating to the human rights legislation. I recognise that members have sincere concerns regarding the potential for legal challenge and so, to that end, I would like to put their minds at rest by drawing their attention to relevant case law on this issue.
The case of Mellacher v Austria concerned restrictions on the rent that a property owner could charge. Rent control legislation reduced rents to 20 per cent and 17.5 per cent of their initial levels. The court held that the Austrian legislature had had regard to striking a fair balance between the general interests of the community and the right of property landlords in general. There was no breach of the ECHR. That case has been used as authority in Scotland, which suggests that the rent freeze proposal does not breach the ECHR and is, accordingly, within the competence of the Scottish Parliament.
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
Now is not the time, Ross—I do not know what I am supposed to refer to him as.
I ask members to refer to each other by their full names. Thank you.
Ross Greer. Sorry, Presiding Officer.
Amendments 72 and 73 merely freeze rent, rather than reducing it. I have sought to strike a balance between the rights of the landlords, by giving them the ability to appeal and by providing a deadline of 2024, and the interests of the community, given the cost of living crisis.
The measures that I propose in my amendments are less drastic than those taken in Austria and even the Austrian legislation did not breach the ECHR. Given that that case has been used as authority in Scotland, I ask the minister to reconsider his opposition and instead join Labour in supporting them today.
The minister also made a point about the risk of increased evictions. What we have proposed is not a blanket freeze but a proportionate time-limited measure that allows for exceptions. Indeed, it allows for further exceptions, should the minister wish to work and engage constructively.
The amendments, which are entirely consistent with case law, are a short-term solution to mitigate the cost of living emergency. I do not think that what we propose could be successfully challenged. However, even if a private individual or a company challenged a provision in the Court of Session, that would not jeopardise the entire legislation or future legislation; the challenge would be against a single provision.
I urge the minister—I feel that the Government is scaremongering at this point—to come on board and join us. Today, we have the power to legislate in the interests of tenants. There is no excuse not to do so.
Tenants need urgent financial support now, after a decade of rent hikes and in the face of the current cost of living increases. To turn our backs on tenants now would signal to them that we are not acting in their interests. The amendments enjoy support from tenants through Living Rent and of workers in every sector through the Scottish Trades Union Congress. Let us show tenants which side we are on; let us show them in whose interests we are working; and let us come together to deliver the emergency rent freeze that we so desperately need.
Ms Villalba, will you clarify whether you are pressing or withdrawing amendment 72?
I am 100 per cent pressing the amendment.
The question is, that amendment 72 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is now closed.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 21, Against 94, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 72 disagreed to.
Amendment 73 moved—[Mercedes Villalba].
The question is, that amendment 73 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is now closed.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 21, Against 94, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 73 disagreed to.
I advise members that there will now be a five-minute comfort break.
18:56 Meeting suspended.Section 40—Expiry
We recommence proceedings. [Interruption.] If members could face the chair and have no more conversations that are not about the debate, that would be helpful. Thank you, Mr Mundell.
Group 9 is on time limits in criminal proceedings. Amendment 74, in the name of Katy Clark, is grouped with amendments 75 to 77, 82 to 91 and 25.
I will speak about amendment 74 slightly later. First, I will speak about amendments 82 to 91. Those amendments seek to change the time limits in criminal courts, which were extended under the emergency Covid legislation, by creating shorter general blanket extensions in all criminal cases. Of course, under Scots law, it is always possible to go to court to make a case on cause shown as to why the Crown does not have sufficient time, and needs further time, to prepare a case for trial. Therefore, cases would not time out as a result of any of my amendments being agreed to.
In today’s debate, we have heard a considerable amount about human rights and the European convention on human rights. There can be no doubt that the extensions that were granted during the Covid pandemic, and the increasingly extensive period in which people are held in prison without appearing in court, have real human rights ramifications, and that they could, indeed, easily be challenged under human rights legislation.
Scotland’s criminal law has a proud history of protections, but the legislation that has been enacted during the pandemic has had the effect of increasing the number of people in prisons. That is on top of significant increases in prison numbers over the past two decades. Scotland has the highest number of people in prison in Europe, and we have the highest number of people on remand. During the pandemic, the proportion of the prison population on remand has increased from 18.7 per cent to something in the region of 30 per cent, now.
The whole criminal justice system works towards the time limits that are set out in legislation. My submission is that the effect of those time limits—because the people who work in the system work to those limits—will put us in a situation in which individuals are in prison who would not be there if they had appeared before a court. The courts look at individual circumstances in each case and grant bail when they believe it to be appropriate.
Practitioners in the legal profession say that the time limits in the bill are not necessary. Indeed, the Law Society of Scotland is asking that we go back to pre-Covid time limits. We know from research that was undertaken before the pandemic that many prisoners who appear from remand do not receive a prison sentence when they are sentenced, or receive a shorter prison sentence than the period that they have already served, or are found not guilty at that point.
Would my friend recognise that an average cost per prisoner per year of £35,000—about the same as it costs to board a pupil at Fettes College in Edinburgh—is also a massive waste of public money, particularly given the constraints on public finances at the moment?
I agree with Paul Sweeney’s point. The Criminal Justice Committee heard evidence recently that the cost is in the region of £40,000, so I think that the costs in the sector are suffering the inflation that we have heard about in relation to other sectors. It is absolutely clear that it is cheaper to deal with cases in other ways, but those ways are not funded in the necessary manner.
We all appreciate that there are huge backlogs across the justice system. Indeed, the cabinet secretary spoke at stage 2 of the work that is involved in preparing and adjudicating large numbers of applications in order to extend them case by case. We understand that point, but everybody in the sector knows that the system works to deadlines, and that prisons have to accept any prisoner who is sent to them. The impact of continuing with that regime is that prison numbers will continue to rise—with the problems that that situation brings.
I wish to speak to amendments 74 and 75, which have the effect of limiting the period for which the bill will be in operation, and limiting the extension so that those particular provisions would expire after one year. That would require the Government to come back to Parliament if it wished to continue with the extension of time limits, at that point.
I believe that the amendments are proportionate. They give longer time limits than existed before the pandemic, and enable the court to have the form of scrutiny and oversight that are required.
I look forward to hearing the cabinet secretary’s response to the points that I have made. I move amendment 74.
I call Pauline McNeill to speak to amendment 76 and other amendments in the group.
Amendment 76 seeks to ensure that, if an extension is requested to already-extended time limits and the application is granted, the judge or the court must state
“the reason for the application, and ... whether the application was made by the prosecution or the defence.”
Amendment 77 asks for regular six-monthly reports to Parliament, setting out that information.
I strongly believe that we need more transparency about the degree to which extensions of time limits are being sought and granted. Also, and importantly, what types of reasons are being given for why the extensions are needed? It would be wrong to assume that an extension would be given for a minor issue if the purpose is to ensure that we can conduct our cases in court, following what is an extraordinary backlog. The time limits that are allowed are already lengthy, so it is concerning to me that further extensions are being requested. I believe that Parliament needs to understand the matter better. Scotland’s time limits used to be best practice in the international arena. We are moving away so fast from something that had been well established.
Amendment 86 would amend the time limit in relation to remand in High Court solemn cases until the service of the indictment on the accused, from 260 days to 170 days. Before the original coronavirus legislation, the time limit was 80 days. That means that the Crown has up to 260 days in which to prepare a case. There is no court time required. We are entitled to answers as to why it could take up to 260 days to prepare the Crown case.
I have also heard that the Crown Office has had an extra £50 million as an additional resource. That makes no sense to me. If we accept that the time limit for preparation of a case in the High Court can take up to 260 days, all the other time limits will follow after that. As Katy Clark rightly said, it is human nature for people to work to a deadline. If we give longer—260 days—there will be a tendency to think that that is the deadline. We have been told by ministers up until now that the Crown will not have to use all that time—that is just the time at the outset.
The Law Society of Scotland has stated that it does not consider the Government’s proposed time limit extension to be proportionate. As for the extension of the time periods, the immediate public health restrictions in court proceedings have now been revoked.
The number of people being held on remand—which Katy Clark also mentioned—remains at an historical high. It is important to understand the relationship between the extension of the time limits and the fact that Scotland has a scandal in its prisons, with a very high remand population. As of March 2022, a staggering 29 per cent of prisoners were on remand; 25 per cent were untried and 4 per cent were awaiting sentence.
Amnesty International has voiced concerns over the growing number of people on remand in Scotland. It has pointed out:
“In international law, the detention of individuals who are awaiting trial is a matter of special concern. They have yet to be found guilty of any offence and are therefore innocent in the eyes of the law. This is a fundamental human rights principle, enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights ... and elaborated on in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights ... specifically the rights of a detained person to know why he or she has been arrested and to be brought before a court of law at the earliest possible opportunity.”
Members must know, when voting for or against the amendments in the group, that an accused person in remand in a Scottish prison will not see the full case against them until up to 260 days, potentially.
Last year, the Howard League reported that, between 2014 and 2017, almost 60 per cent
“of remand prisoners who were later convicted in summary proceedings”
and almost 30 per cent
“of remand prisoners who were later convicted in solemn proceedings, did not receive custodial sentences”.
I ask members from the governing parties to think about that. It is absolutely staggering. There could be people in a Scottish jail for up to a year waiting for their cases to be heard, and 28.9 per cent of them will not get a custodial sentence. That is an absolute scandal.
Although I concede that some extension to the time limit should proceed, we must move in the right direction towards getting back to the pre-Covid time limits. During the debate at the Criminal Justice Committee on 8 June, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans said:
“Removing or reducing the length of the time limit extension ... will not result in cases being heard more quickly”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 8 June 2022; c 45.]
on time spent on remand until service of the indictment. I would be interested to hear where that assertion comes from. I could understand it if ministers were talking about a situation in which there is not a court available. By the way, as was discussed earlier, the lack of defence counsel and of defence lawyers could also hold up the court case.
Surely there is universal concern in the Scottish Parliament about the fact that, even as we come out of and recover from difficult circumstances, we have so many people in Scottish jails awaiting trial, but would allow such extraordinary time limits without question.
If ministers are not likely to support most of the amendments in the group—I appreciate that—perhaps they could at least consider supporting the amendments that provide for us to be able to record why an extension was granted and who asked for it. At the very least, would the cabinet secretary consider agreeing to the idea that Parliament should get to see that information every six months? If we think that we are standing up for fair justice, the least that we should be prepared to do is see every six months what is happening in our courts and what is happening to untried people in Scottish jails, in order that we can ensure that we do not override the important question of access to, and fairness in, our justice system
19:15
I confirm that the Conservatives will support all the amendments in the group, mostly in the interests of the victims of crime, who are waiting for their day in court. The elongated time periods are adversely affecting and retraumatising them. We will support Labour’s proposals if they are pressed.
Most of the amendments in this group were debated extensively at stage 2, when the Criminal Justice Committee explored the various issues in detail.
Amendments 74 and 75 seek to expire certain time limits automatically one year after the bill receives royal assent. As I said at stage 2, we simply do not yet know what the situation will be with the backlog of cases in the summer of 2023. If those amendments are agreed to, the time limit extensions relating to remand cases would expire no matter what the scale of the backlog of cases was at that point.
I have similar concerns about amendments 82 to 85 and 87 to 91, in the name of Katy Clark, and amendment 86, in the name of Pauline McNeill. They all seek to reduce the length of the extensions to time limits provided for in the bill and are almost all the same as amendments that were debated extensively at stage 2, during lengthy debates. I cannot support pre-emptive attempts to reduce or expire extended time limits if such action would significantly adversely affect the time and resources for progressing trials.
The temporary time limit extension provisions are not the cause of the backlog. Extensions to the time limits help to ensure that scarce prosecutorial, court and defence resource is not diverted to having to prepare and adjudicate on large numbers of applications to extend the statutory time limits case by case. For that reason, I ask Ms Clark and Ms McNeill not to move amendments 82 to 91.
Amendments 76 and 77, in the name of Pauline McNeill, are new amendments that have not been discussed during scrutiny of the bill. They would require courts to record who applies for extensions to certain time limits in criminal cases and why. They would also require the Scottish ministers to report on that information every six months in perpetuity.
In any individual case, there might be a host of interconnected reasons why the prosecution or the defence might not be ready to proceed with a trial in line with the statutory time limits. The exact wording of amendment 76 is that
“the reason for the application”
should be noted. That duty could be fulfilled through recording that the case was not ready to proceed to trial, which would not provide helpful information. If the whole procedural history of the case was recorded each time that a time limit extension was granted, that would place a significant and undue additional administrative burden on the court service.
My officials have been in touch with the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service, which has advised that however amendments 76 and 77 are interpreted, they would have a significant resource impact on the operation of the courts. In particular, they would add to the burden faced by court clerks by requiring them to record new information, and they could require changes to information technology systems. That would happen at a time when it is important that the justice system’s resources are fully focused on tackling the backlog of cases. I ask Pauline McNeill not to move those amendments.
How can we get some transparency if we allow the time limits, which I hope the cabinet secretary agrees are lengthy?
The cabinet secretary did not answer the question why the Crown needs 260 days to prepare a case, so I hope that he will address that point. Under the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, it is possible for there to be a further extension at the end of the 320 days, so I would have thought that it would be helpful to have some transparency so that we know what is going on in our courts. This morning, I spoke to a lawyer who said that his client had been in Barlinnie prison for two years. I am sure that the Government would express some concern about that. We do not want to be in this situation.
During stage 2, I tried as best I could to provide the committee with scrutiny assistance on various aspects of different amendments, including offering to write to the Lord Advocate in support of the committee’s requests and, in a number of other regards, to increase the information flow. I will only give a general commitment that, in addition to the evidence that the committee seeks, if it requests information from the court service or elsewhere, I will try to assist with that.
On the questions about why extensions are being sought and their extent, that is based on the evidence that we have heard from the court service and the Crown Office about what they require to deal with the backlog. It is not just that Covid is still here but that the backlog is still here, and that is what we are trying to deal with.
Amendment 25 is a technical amendment that is consequential to Pauline McNeill’s stage 2 amendment to section 201 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995. It ensures that the full policy intent of the amendment, which was agreed to at stage 2, is met. I invite members to support amendment 25.
I want to express my support and that of the Scottish Liberal Democrats for the proposals that Pauline McNeill has introduced through her amendments. In the past, the cabinet secretary has rightly acknowledged the extent of the problem of those who are held on remand, an issue that was also raised with his predecessor. There is common agreement across the parties that we have failed to tackle the issue to the extent that we would wish.
Although I accept that there might be problems with the practicalities of Pauline McNeill’s amendments, she makes important points about better understanding the rationale for why we are in the situation that we are in, because the issues pre-dated Covid. We need to get to grips with that, and, if the cabinet secretary cannot support the amendments, I encourage him to introduce proposals about how we begin to understand the rationale.
In addition to what I have said to Pauline McNeill, Liam McArthur will be aware that the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill has been introduced. It specifically seeks to address our high levels of remand, based on the general concern among members about that, so it might present an opportunity for further scrutiny.
I fully accept that point, and, from the discussions that we have had, the cabinet secretary will know my support for those proposals. It is not necessarily a panacea—there are other issues at play—but I recognise that the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill might give us the opportunity to explore further the issues that are thrown up by Pauline McNeill’s amendments. I thank her again for providing members with the opportunity to have this debate at stage 3.
I call Katy Clark to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 74.
As we all know, many of the provisions that were brought in during the Covid pandemic were ones that none of us would have accepted in normal circumstances. The pandemic is still with us, but, in many ways, we are moving back to a more normal situation. Earlier, the Government provided information about some of the work that has been done to decrease the backlog of cases. However, it is clear that there are individuals in prison who would not be there if a court looked at their case.
Amendment 82 would shorten the time between appearance in petition to pre-trial hearing from 17 months to 13 months. Amendment 85 would reduce the period to trial from 12 months to nine months. Amendments 87 and 89 would reduce the time on remand until the pre-trial hearing in solemn cases from 290 days to 200 days, and amendments 88 and 90 would reduce that time period from 320 days to 230 days.
It cannot be right that people are spending such extended periods in prison without the oversight of the judiciary through being brought automatically to court. The amendments offer a halfway house between the pre-pandemic limits and the Scottish Government’s proposed limits.
No evidence has been forthcoming from the Scottish Government on the reasons or justification for why the specific time periods in the bill were chosen at the beginning of the pandemic.
I will press some of the amendments to the vote.
Just to clarify, you are pressing amendment 74.
Yes, I will press amendment 74.
The question is, that amendment 74 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is now closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not get my app to upgrade itself in time.
I think that the vote was closed before you reached your seat, Ms Boyack.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 74 disagreed to.
Amendment 75 not moved.
Group 10 is on review of temporary justice measures. Amendment 13, in the name of Jamie Greene, is grouped with amendment 14.
Section 40 relates to some of the temporary justice measures that the bill seeks to extend, and it has been a source of a little bit of contention throughout the process. Certain elements of the justice system have changed as a result of Covid. Some of those changes have been welcomed not just in the political sphere but by the legal profession and those in the justice system, but there are changes that some feel should end.
The bill allows that to happen. At the moment, some of the temporary justice measures expire on 30 November 2023. Ministers can seek to extend them by one year, to 2024, then subsequently by one further year, to 2025, but no further thereafter. At the moment, section 42(4) requires ministers to lay regulations to extend temporary justice measures but provide Parliament with only
“a statement of their reasons why the regulations should be made.”
At stage 2, I felt that that did not go far enough. I felt that ministers should present a proper explanation of the requirement to extend justice measures for a number of years, and, as part of that process, undertake proper consultation and bring that to Parliament. The minister accepted that point, and his officials worked with me to produce amendments 13 and 14, which I trust members will support.
Amendments 13 and 14 will insert a new subsection that is designed to set out the actual process that must be undertaken prior to laying a statement of reasons and to ensure that any proposals to extend these temporary justice provisions are informed by the appropriateness of extending them—and, more importantly, by consultation.
19:30I thank the Government for working with me on the amendments, as they insert an important step in ensuring that ministers, when seeking to extend what are meant to be only temporary measures in the justice system, come forward with very good reasons why those measures could or should be extended. That is important, given that we do not know what pandemic scenarios may arise.
There has been a lot of talk today about what else is happening next year but, equally, we should not lose sight of the fact that the measures in the bill do not simply make temporary measures permanent, but extend what were originally emergency measures in the justice system. Those measures were subject to quite a lot of scrutiny by the Criminal Justice Committee at stage 2. I therefore ask members to support both of the amendments in the group.
I move amendment 13.
I am pleased to support Jamie Greene’s amendments 13 and 14. The Government is committed to continuing to engage with justice partners and victims’ organisations on the temporary justice measures in the bill. Amendment 13 would embed a statutory duty for ministers to consult as part of considering whether to extend these temporary measures.
The bill already requires that, if ministers seek to extend the expiry date of the temporary justice measures in the bill, they must provide Parliament with a statement of their reasons for an extension. These amendments would strengthen that requirement by requiring that the statement of reasons must include a summary of the consultation and the findings of the review. I therefore welcome the amendments, which would enhance Parliament’s ability to scrutinise any extensions effectively.
Amendment 13 agreed to.
Section 42—Regulations under this Part
The question is, that amendment 14 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: Yes.
I jumped the gun there, Mr Greene. I should have asked you whether you wished to move amendment 14, which had been previously debated with amendment 13. Do you wish to move the amendment?
Given that it has already been agreed to, I will move it. [Laughter.]
That may get us both out of a hole.
The question is, that amendment 14 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: Yes.
The amendment is agreed to, despite the spoiler.
Amendment 14 agreed to.
After section 42
Amendment 76 moved—[Pauline McNeill].
The question is, that amendment 76 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 50, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 76 disagreed to.
Amendment 77 moved—[Pauline McNeill].
The question is, that amendment 77 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 51, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 77 disagreed to.
After section 44
Group 11 is on conduct of court and tribunal business by electronic means. I call amendment 78, in the name of Katy Clark, which is grouped with amendments 15, 16, 79 and 17 to 24.
Amendment 78 would require the Scottish Government to provide Parliament with six-monthly reports on the operation of virtual courts.
We know that, in reality, very few fully virtual criminal cases have taken place during the pandemic, although some aspects of cases have been virtual. For example, juries have attended remotely in cinemas.
It has taken some time for the Criminal Justice Committee to get information on the extent of virtual hearings. It is clear that many in the legal profession are strongly opposed to some aspects of virtual courts, particularly those relating to witnesses giving evidence. The cabinet secretary therefore agreed that no virtual cases would proceed without the agreement of all parties. It is therefore unclear how quickly virtual courts will be rolled out across the country. For that reason alone, it is necessary for Parliament to receive regular reports to enable effective scrutiny.
When courts do take place virtually, the Parliament needs to know what impact that has on the balance of justice. Many people are campaigning for virtual courts. We already allow many vulnerable witnesses to give evidence remotely, and many victims would find it less traumatic to give evidence virtually. There is a strong case for taking steps along that path.
It has always been the presumption that virtual hearings might lead to more convictions. However, that is not necessarily what the evidence suggests. Fully virtual courts would mean that the accused and other witnesses would give evidence remotely. During the pandemic, a pilot of fully virtual court hearings, predominantly involving domestic abuse cases, was carried out in the north-east. Albeit that the sample size was small, there was an unusually high number of acquittals, with the accused being found not guilty. That issue was raised at stage 2 and the cabinet secretary agreed that more evidence would be needed to build up a picture of the impact of virtual courts before any decisions are made about permanent arrangements.
I think that there is a strong case for virtual courts, particularly for victims of offences such as domestic abuse and sexual violence, who may find attending court traumatising. However, if it is the case that people are more likely to be acquitted in a virtual hearing, I think that we have to look very carefully at whether the accused person should also give evidence in that way. As the north-east pilot shows, we cannot presume the outcome of cases. I believe that Parliament must be clear about whether virtual hearings are actually taking place and should also receive regular reports on the implications of such hearings as well as the extent to which evidence is given virtually and other aspects of cases are dealt with virtually.
For that reason, I move amendment 78.
I call the cabinet secretary to speak to amendment 15 and the other amendments in the group.
I am pleased to speak to this group of amendments, which deals with electronic attendance at court. I commend the justice agencies on the record for their urgent, effective and collaborative work over the past two years. Virtual hearings are one measure that has enabled them to respond to the challenges that the pandemic has caused, and the extension of those measures is an important part of the justice system’s recovery.
I do not support Katy Clark’s amendment 78, which would require ministers to prepare and lay regular reports
“setting out the progress that is being made in the implementation of virtual courts.”
That would not be a temporary provision; it would be a permanent one that remained on the statute book even after all the provisions on virtual court attendance in the bill had expired. There are already avenues for members to obtain such information, such as parliamentary questions and the committee system, and I am pleased to confirm that we are working with the court service to agree an approach to the publishing of regular data to improve the evidence base on virtual trials. I mentioned that at stage 2. I will be happy to update the Criminal Justice Committee on that in due course. I therefore invite Ms Clark not to press her amendment 78.
I turn to my amendments in the group. Government amendments were agreed to at stage 2 to make it the default position that people who are appearing in court on undertakings will attend court in person, which matches what has been happening in practice. I told the committee that, in the run-up to stage 3, we would continue to consult justice partners on whether it would be beneficial to make other types of hearing in person by default.
Many types of hearing in the criminal courts are largely being held in person, and it makes sense for the default positions in legislation to reflect that operational reality. However, some types of hearing are predominantly calling virtually—for example, preliminary hearings in the High Court—and we do not want to undermine those arrangements. The courts also require flexibility, which has proved to be crucial in their response to the pandemic. We have been working closely with partners to try to find the best way to balance those considerations.
My amendments 15, 16, 21 and 22 are designed to do two main things. First, they will make almost all hearings in criminal cases in person by default. Civil proceedings are not affected. Secondly, they will enable the Lord Justice General to make determinations that suspend the requirement for physical attendance for particular groups of people or particular classes of criminal hearing. In other words, the default mode of attendance for those people or those hearings would become virtual.
For instance, the Lord Justice General might determine that virtual attendance should be the default for preliminary hearings in the High Court or when a person has Covid, or a determination could be used to support pilots of virtual hearings in specific parts of the country. Those are just illustrative examples; the decisions will be a matter for the Lord Justice General. However, that power to make determinations could not be used to make trials virtual by default.
Whether the default is physical or virtual attendance, courts and tribunals will have the flexibility to override the defaults in individual cases as long as they are satisfied that that will not jeopardise the fairness of proceedings or the interests of justice. Where the default is virtual attendance, a person will still be able to request an in-person hearing. Any determination that the Lord Justice General makes under the provisions must be made publicly available, so members will have a clearer picture of where and when virtual hearings are being used.
I know that Pauline McNeill has been particularly concerned about custody hearings being held by videolink. I hope that, rather than moving her amendment 79, she will support amendments 15 and 21. As I said, they will make almost all hearings in criminal cases in person by default, including custody hearings. The door is being left open for the Lord Justice General to determine that custody hearings should become virtual by default, at least in some circumstances. I think that that is a good thing. Greater use of technology in our courts has the potential to improve the experience and processes of hearings, and we should allow latitude for testing that.
I hope that Pauline McNeill will be reassured by the safeguards that I have outlined. I have no doubt that she and her colleagues on the Criminal Justice Committee will keep a careful eye on developments, and I very much welcome that.
My amendments 19, 20, 23 and 24 make changes to how courts and tribunals consider representations and issue directions in relation to a person’s mode of attendance. The changes apply to both civil and criminal proceedings. The bill as introduced called for parties to be given an opportunity to make representations about the mode of attendance before any directions about it were issued. However, practical experience has shown that, in some contexts, the first opportunity for parties to make representations can be at, rather than before, the first hearing in a case. In other cases, it is simply more efficient to let the court or tribunal first propose how attendance should take place, because it then only has to spend time dealing with any objections to that proposal.
19:45The amendments therefore enable a court or tribunal to direct a person on how to attend a hearing, whether in person or virtually, without first giving parties the opportunity to make representations. They put the court or tribunal under a legal duty to ensure that the parties are aware of their right to challenge the mode of attendance that is proposed by the court, and to deal with any such challenge before turning to the substantive business of the hearing. If a court or tribunal upheld a challenge to proceeding virtually or in person, the hearing would be adjourned and rearranged accordingly.
Finally, amendments 17 and 18 in my name are minor technical corrections. They ensure that tests that are designed to be applied when courts or tribunals override an in-person or virtual default rule apply only to the overriding of the rule and not to decisions that would have the effect of reverting back to the default.
I hope that members across the chamber will support my amendments.
Before I call the next speaker, members will have noted that we have passed the agreed time limit for the debate on this group to have finished. I confirm that I have exercised my power under rule 9.8.4A to allow the debate on this group to continue beyond the limit in order to avoid unreasonably curtailing the debate.
I call Pauline McNeill to speak to amendment 79 and the other amendments in the group.
Amendment 79 prevents appearances in custody courts from being virtual by default. Having visited the sheriff court in Glasgow to see how virtual court appearances operate in practice, I am convinced that they do not save time or resources; rather, they cost, on both counts.
The quality of the virtual experience was extremely poor. Virtual appearances in custody courts are slowing down courts, and courts regularly have to run late because of them, with all the costs that that incurs. It is not surprising that sheriffs and staff are not happy about that. If anything, as far as I could see, virtual custody courts add to the backlog. Further to that, as I said, the videolinks are extremely poor.
Citizens Advice Scotland and the Law Society of Scotland have raised concerns about our reliance on virtual hearings. The Law Society has argued that the use of virtual custody courts raises significant operational and human rights concerns. It noted that the evaluation of the Falkirk pilot in May 2022 was critical of the virtual custody process, absent significant additional investment, and stated that the issue of fairness to the accused is fundamental.
The Law Society has also said that the physical separation of the accused, the solicitors and the courtroom has had a detrimental impact on the overall process. Many solicitors have also complained that they cannot advise their clients, because they are not in the police station where their clients are being called during the custody hearing. The process has made it harder for solicitors to communicate with their clients, that is for sure. Police Scotland has said that it cannot support the fully virtual model without a complete overhaul of the custody process and significant investment in resources.
I put on record that I am extremely grateful to the cabinet secretary, Keith Brown, for the thorough way in which he has examined the issue. When he wrote to me last week, I was delighted to see that he had lodged amendments that have my full support. It is important, particularly in relation to custody hearings and other hearings, that physical hearings are the default. As Katy Clark said, it is important that, as we move forward and decide which aspects of the court process are suitable for virtual hearings, we are sure that such hearings are of good quality and do not compromise the quality of justice.
The cabinet secretary said that the Lord Justice General may have the power to decide on whether preliminary hearings in the High Court are virtual. I put out a plea that, when we examine all aspects of the court process, the Parliament has oversight of whether preliminary hearings are virtual. Those hearings have been physical and are really important—they are where the defence and the prosecution agree their evidence, although there are no witnesses and the accused is not there. It is right that the Parliament has oversight of that and that it is not simply a matter for the Lord Justice General.
I am delighted to support the Government amendments, and I will not move amendment 79.
I encourage members who need to carry on conversations to do so outside of the chamber.
I will keep this brief.
Amendment 78 is an important one, and we will support it. Members who were here two years ago will remember when the Parliament shut down as a result of the pandemic. We had to go fully virtual at one point. That was helpful—it allowed us to carry on our business in some manner or form—but it was not ideal. Exactly the same point is to be made about virtual courts and virtual trials: they are helpful in some cases, but they are far from ideal. That is a view that is reflected by the key stakeholders on both sides—the defence and the prosecution.
I simply make a plea that we get our courts back open as fully as possible, because the cinemas that housed juries to do remote jury trials are now packed by people watching movies cheek by jowl. There is no reason why a court should not be back open to its full extent. That will help us to get through the backlog of cases, help to reduce the long remand times that were spoken about in the debate on the previous group of amendments, and help to alleviate some of the trauma that victims are going through in waiting for their trials.
I support all the amendments in the group as a result of the quite considered conversations that we had at stages 1 and 2. There are some lessons to be learned. There are things that worked really well remotely. We heard from witnesses, the police and other experts who waste entire days or even weeks going to court. Cases are not called, and they spend hours wasting time. There are benefits of technology, when it is used appropriately, but there are serious reservations and concerns about fully virtual trials and what they mean for justice—for both the accused and the accuser.
The amendment that requires ministers to come back to Parliament and report is quite a sensible one. I do not think that it is overly onerous. Perhaps it is not the best drafted amendment—for example, it does not have an end date, and it is not pertinent to the conclusion of the regulations that it relates to. That is a shame but, nonetheless, that is a valid point to make.
I ask members to support the amendments in the group. I am pleased that Ms McNeill will not move amendment 79. Amendments 15 and 21 do the job better, and it is good that the Government has worked constructively with members on that issue.
More information needs to be provided to Parliament and to the relevant committee on the operation of criminal courts. Significant changes are being proposed to the criminal justice system and, indeed, to our fundamental right to a fair trial. We need to have the evidence base to ensure that any permanent changes are the right changes, because a very different approach might need to be taken in cases that involve evidence being given to case management aspects. For those reasons, I will press amendment 78.
The question is, that amendment 78 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 47, Against 67, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 78 disagreed to.
Section 46—Commencement
Amendment 6 moved—[Murdo Fraser].
The question is, that amendment 6 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
The vote is now closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My device is showing that connection to the digital voting platform failed. I would have voted yes.
Your vote has been recorded, Mr Mountain.
The app is obviously more reliable than I thought—or it shows.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 50, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 6 disagreed to.
Amendment 7 moved—[Murdo Fraser].
The question is, that amendment 7 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 30, Against 85, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 7 disagreed to.
Schedule—Temporary justice measures
Amendment 15 moved—[Keith Brown]—and agreed to.
Amendment 16 moved—[Keith Brown].
The question is, that amendment 16 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: Yes.
That is agreed to.
Presiding Officer, amendment 16 is not agreed to.
We have just agreed to amendment 16, Mr Whitfield.
I disagreed to the amendment.
20:00
I have not called the next amendment yet, so I am prepared to re-run that vote.
Members: Ooh!
This is not a popularity contest. We are going to proceed on the basis that I have suggested. If anybody objects to an amendment, I encourage them to make their objection as audible as possible.
The question is, that amendment 16 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 88, Against 25, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 16 agreed to.
Amendment 79 not moved.
Amendments 17 to 24, in the name of the cabinet secretary, have all previously been debated with amendment 78. I invite the cabinet secretary to move amendments 17 to 24 en bloc.
Amendments 17 to 24 moved—[Keith Brown].
Does any member object to a single question being put on amendments 17 to 24?
Yes.
It would be helpful, Mr Whitfield, if you could identify which amendments you object to.
Amendments 20 and 24.
Okay. In that case, I propose to put the question on amendments 17 to 19 en bloc. Are we all agreed?
Members: Yes.
That is agreed.
I call amendment 20. The question is, that amendment 20 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
For the avoidance of doubt, are we all agreed on amendments 17, 18 and 19?
Members: Yes.
Amendments 17 to 19 agreed to.
Excellent. We are not agreed on amendment 20, so we will move to a vote.
The vote is now closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The app is getting a bit tired. I would have voted yes.
Much like the most of us. I will make sure that that is recorded.
For
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
Against
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 95, Against 20, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 20 agreed to.
Amendments 21 to 23 agreed to.
The question is, that amendment 24 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
Against
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 95, Against 21, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 24 agreed to.
Group 12 is on fiscal fines. Amendment 80, in the name of Russell Findlay, is grouped with amendment 81.
I had pages and pages of wisdom to impart but, after what I can best describe as gentle encouragement from my colleagues, I have put a pen through most of it.
Amendments 80 and 81 relate to fiscal fines that are issued directly by the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service to an accused person as an alternative to prosecution. Those neither result in criminal conviction, nor are they an admission of guilt.
The emergency Covid law increased the rate of fiscal fines from £300 to £500. It stands to reason that more crimes—and more serious crimes—will be more likely to result in fiscal fines. My concern is that prosecutors, who are under immense pressure, might be inclined to use those as a means of reducing the Government’s chronic court backlog. We neither know which types of crime now qualify for fiscal fines, nor how many more will be disposed of in that way. I remain vexed about the difficulties that the Criminal Justice Committee has experienced in getting such basic information from the Crown Office and Government. However, we know one thing: all those cases will be kept secret from the public.
There is another concern. Last year, John Swinney told the Parliament that the refusal of a fiscal fine would be
“treated as a request by the alleged offender to be prosecuted for the offence”.—[Official Report, 23 June 2021; c 64.]
That sounds great—criminals can either pay up or have their day in court. However, it has not quite worked out in the way in which Mr Swinney sold it. A freedom of information request has shown that around 30 per cent of rejected offers saw prosecutors taking no further action. That fails victims.
To summarise, there is a potential misuse of fiscal fines to clear the backlog; there is a lack of detail about how, why and when they are being used; and there is a concern that the rejection of fiscal fines does not result in prosecution. Each of those risks undermining the public’s faith in justice.
Amendment 81 is consequential to amendment 80. I therefore urge members to support both amendments.
I move amendment 80.
Amendments 80 and 81, in the name of Russell Findlay, retread ground that was extensively debated at stage 2. They would end the temporary increase—from £300 to £500—to the upper limit of fiscal fines. That increase, which has been in force since April 2020, has freed up the courts and prosecutors to deal with more serious cases, easing the burden at a time of significant resource pressure as justice agencies deal with the backlog that has built up during the pandemic.
Fiscal fines have been part of the Scottish justice system since the mid-1990s. Independent prosecutors are able to use their discretion in deciding whether it is in the public interest to offer a fine as an alternative to prosecution. They are a tool that can be used by prosecutors to relieve the pressure on the courts by allowing less serious offences to be dealt with without taking up valuable court time.
Rightly, members have expressed concerns about the backlog of cases in our courts. This is not the moment to remove a measure that is aimed at tackling that backlog. Indeed, due to inflation, to revert to the previous maximum level of £300 would make fiscal fines less effective in diverting cases away from prosecution than they were when the Parliament approved that £300 maximum in 2007. At this time, given the backlog in the criminal courts, that would be counterproductive.
Retaining the maximum level of fiscal fine at £500 for a further temporary period remains an important part of our justice system’s on-going recovery from the impacts of the pandemic, and I ask members to reject amendments 80 and 81.
I call Russell Findlay to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 80.
Amendments 80 and 81 do, in some ways, retread old ground. That is because the concerns remain valid and the questions remain unanswered. Despite the cabinet secretary’s app fatigue, I press amendment 80.
The question is, that amendment 80 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division. Members should cast their votes now. [Interruption.]
You styled that out, Mr Stewart. The vote is closed.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 48, Against 67, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 80 disagreed to.
Amendment 81 not moved.
Amendment 82 moved—[Katy Clark].
20:15
The question is, that amendment 82 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 51, Against 65, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 82 disagreed to.
Amendments 83 and 84 not moved.
Amendment 85 moved—[Katy Clark].
The question is, that amendment 85 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 51, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 85 disagreed to.
Amendment 86 moved—[Pauline McNeill].
The question is, that amendment 86 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 50, Against 65, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 86 disagreed to.
Amendments 87 to 91 not moved.
Amendment 25 moved—[Keith Brown]—and agreed to.
Group 13 is on early release of prisoners: policy. I draw members’ attention to the procedural information relating to this group, which is set out in the groupings.
Amendment 92 pre-empts amendments 93, 26, 27, 94, 95, 28 and 96. Therefore, if amendment 92 is agreed to, I will not be able to call amendments 93, 26, 27, 94, 95, 28 and 96.
Amendment 92, in the name of Russell Findlay, is grouped with amendments 93, 26, 27, 94, 95 and 28. I call Russell Findlay to move amendment 92 and to speak to all the amendments in the group.
As previously, after some military persuasion from Mr Mountain and some subbing advice from Mr Simpson, this will be short.
Amendments 92 and 94 in my name relate to the emergency release of prisoners. As I argued in relation to my multiple similar amendments during stage 2, this is in some way a point of principle. Prison sentences are imposed by the independent judiciary on the basis of all relevant available information, and it is wrong for ministers to have such widespread powers to override those decisions and to do so in such great numbers.
At stage 2, we learned that 142 of the 348 prisoners who were released early under the emergency powers reoffended within six months, so people suffered as a direct consequence of the ministerial decision. Covid-19 caught everyone off guard, but that was more than two years ago. It is my contention that the Scottish Government should be better prepared the next time, if there is one, which includes its having the ability to safely manage the prison population in the event of a similar outbreak. Being prepared is preferable to the panic opening of prison gates.
Victims’ groups were scathing about the ministerial mass release of 2020. Victim Support Scotland told the Criminal Justice Committee that “no regard whatsoever” was given to victims.
If amendment 92 were not successful, my amendment 94 would seek to exempt the early release of any prisoner who is serving a sentence of more than 12 months. It seems to be common sense that those more serious offenders should not benefit from early release at the stroke of a ministerial pen.
I thank the cabinet secretary and his team for the inclusion of amendment 27, which came about as a result of my similar stage 2 amendments.
I ask members to support my amendments.
I move amendment 92.
I call Jamie Greene to speak to amendment 93 and other amendments in the group.
Following on from my colleague’s comments, if the Parliament is not minded to accept his amendment about the overall premise of early release, I ask members to consider mine instead. If ministers are to use that power, my amendments 93 and 95 are short but quite important—maybe not necessarily to us, but to the victims of the crimes of those people who have been released early.
Our arguments against early release as a concept are on the record and there is no point in rehearsing those. What matters is whether that power is used, and it was used before: 348 people were released early, whatever our views are on that. What did not happen was proper notification to the victims. We know that they were not properly notified because that is what Victim Support Scotland said. We have heard one quote from Kate Wallace, and I would like to put on record another. She told us that there was
“a massive upsurge in the number of victims who contacted us”—
that is, Victim Support Scotland. Those victims were
“petrified that the perpetrator in their case was going to be released early. We all struggled to find the capacity to manage people’s anxiety and to support them through that time.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 23 February 2022; c 10-11.]
We also heard about the funding that was available for things such as personal safety or security devices. The requests for such funding went through the roof because people were genuinely concerned that the offender had been released.
We must put ourselves in the shoes of a victim who does not know whether the perpetrator will be or has been released. If that person has been released, what does that mean to the victim? The anxiety that victims were feeling was palpable. Let us not forget that, of the 348 people who were released using the extraordinary power, 21 had been convicted of serious assault.
I welcome the fact that the cabinet secretary has said on the record that he is sympathetic to doing something about the situation and that more victims should be informed about decisions that affect them. To use his words, if we were ever to use that early release power again, we would “want to learn” from the experience in 2020 and ensure that improvements to the process were put in place. That would include improved communication with victims. My amendment 93 would ensure just that. It would mean that every victim of an offender who was released early under the ministerial power would be afforded the privilege, the benefit and the luxury of being told that information. Let us do right by the victims. This is the cabinet secretary’s opportunity to do that and to stick to the commitment that he made at stage 2.
I now turn to the other two notable amendments in this group. Amendment 26 is a response to concerns that I raised at stage 2 about people being released more than six months before the end of their sentence. The cabinet secretary conceded that that was unacceptable and lodged an amendment in response to that. I support amendment 26.
Amendment 27 relates to the type of offences that cannot merit early release. In this case, those are specifically offences under the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018. It goes without saying that people who have perpetrated the most heinous types of domestic abuse or violence against their partners should absolutely not be considered for early release. I support amendment 27, too.
I know that this is the last group, but I ask members to think carefully about how they vote on the amendments in it. We all want to do right by the victims of crime, and I hope that my short amendment 93 will improve things. We all hope that the power is not used again and that it does not have to be. However, if it is used again, the very least that we can do is ensure that the victims of those crimes are informed as much as possible as part of the process. We owe that to them, and we know that, to date, that simply has not been the case.
Ensuring the security and good order of our prisons and young offenders institutions and the health and safety of both those detained in them and those who work in them is absolutely vital. It is a responsibility that I take extremely seriously. The emergency prisoner release power—which, I remind the Parliament, the Scottish Government has used only once since it was introduced under the Coronavirus (Scotland) Act 2020—is a way of meeting that important responsibility. The Scottish Government currently has no plans to use the power, but we have all seen how unpredictable the coronavirus and its variants can be and the significant impact that coronavirus outbreaks have on the prison regime.
Without these temporary provisions, we would be required to introduce emergency legislation if the impact of the coronavirus placed the security of our prisons or young offenders institutions at risk. Even emergency legislation would take time that we could not afford. For those reasons, the Government is opposed to Russell Findlay’s amendment 92.
Amendments 93 and 95, in the name of Jamie Greene, seek to provide that victims be notified before prisoners are released under that mechanism. I agree that ensuring that victims receive clear and appropriate information about prisoner release is critical. Indeed, that is why the Government is legislating to extend that provision to victim support organisations under our Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill, which is proposed to take over from the extended temporary provisions in the Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill.
The regulations for the May 2020 early release process extended the remit of the victim notification scheme to include prisoners released under that mechanism. That meant that individuals who were registered with the scheme would be informed if the prisoner that they had registered to be notified about was to be released early. We intend to take that bespoke approach should the power ever be needed again.
20:30The drafting of amendment 93 appears to require ministers to notify anyone registered with the victim notification scheme of the release of prisoners, but it is not specific about which prisoners or which victims should be notified. The drafting is so wide that it would mean that every victim who had registered with the notification scheme would need to be notified, not just the victims of prisoners who stood to be released under the emergency mechanism. That seems to risk unnecessarily retraumatising people, although I cannot believe that that is the intention behind it.
I hear what the cabinet secretary says about the deficiency of the wording. Why did the Government not lodge a competent amendment to satisfy that issue? Why did it not lodge an amendment that provided a solution for the victims of specific crimes by specific offenders? Indeed, why did the Government not seek to amend my amendment 93, which it could have done? All those options were available.
It is all very well to shoot down my proposal at stage 3. That is the problem when we rush legislation. I look forward to hearing what the cabinet secretary will commit to doing to ensure that every victim of crime will be notified when an offender has been released early using a power that he will hold.
It is not my or the Government’s responsibility to correct an incompetent amendment. I have laid out what we think our approach should be. We think that that is the right approach, so why would I want to amend Jamie Greene’s amendment 93 if I do not agree with it in the first place?
I could be corrected, but I am sure that I said the same thing at stage 2. If we were to follow amendment 93, we would have to notify every victim who had registered with the scheme on the release of any prisoner. That cannot be what Jamie Greene intended. It is not my fault if that is the impact of the proposed amendment.
Amendment 93 also fails to provide an important safeguard on the sharing of information about prisoner release. The legislation underpinning the victim notification scheme provides the Scottish ministers, as the Scottish Prison Service, with a discretion not to share information with a victim who is registered with the notification scheme in certain circumstances. That discretion is, in part, to protect the human rights of the prisoner being released where they may be at risk from retaliatory attacks following release. Amendment 93 does not give the Scottish ministers such a discretion and, therefore, does not provide for that necessary safeguard.
For those reasons, the Scottish Government cannot support amendments 93 and 95, and I ask Jamie Greene not to move them.
Amendment 94, in the name of Russell Findlay, seeks to exclude individuals who are serving sentences of more than 12 months from emergency release. That is a sweeping and arbitrary exclusion, which I do not support. It would significantly reduce the effectiveness of the emergency release power—which is probably its intention—as a mechanism to manage the prison population in the face of a serious threat to security and good order caused by a deadly virus.
The bill as introduced included restrictions on the categories of prisoner who could be released under the emergency release power. I have been pleased to work with Russell Findlay and Jamie Greene to lodge amendments to impose further specific restrictions that are sensible and proportionate. They are considered and proportionate safeguards. The blanket exclusion from emergency release of anyone sentenced to more than 12 months, regardless of the offence, is not. I urge members not to support amendment 94.
Amendments 26 to 28, in my name, will place further restrictions on how the early prisoner release provision will operate. Those amendments give effect to proposals made by Jamie Greene and Russell Findlay at stage 2.
Amendment 26 restricts the use of the early release power so that it can be used to release prisoners with only six months or less of their sentence left to serve. Amendment 28 is consequential on amendment 26.
Amendment 27 excludes individuals who are serving sentences for offences under the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018 and the Domestic Abuse (Protection) (Scotland) Act 2021 from release under the early release provision. It gives effect to a proposal from Russell Findlay at stage 2 but goes further by also excluding from emergency release individuals who are serving sentences for offences with a domestic abuse aggravation under the Abusive Behaviour and Sexual Harm (Scotland) Act 2016.
I invite members to support the amendments in my name.
I call on Russell Findlay to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 92.
I have little more to say other than to note my disappointment at the cabinet secretary’s response in regard to Jamie Greene’s amendment 93 on the notification that is given to victims. I think that victims will have heard the Government’s message loud and clear.
I press amendment 92.
I remind members that, if amendment 92 is agreed to, I cannot call amendments 93, 26, 27, 94, 95, 28 and 96, due to pre-emption.
The question is, that amendment 92 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 30, Against 84, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 92 disagreed to.
Amendment 93 moved—[Jamie Greene].
The question is, that amendment 93 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 51, Against 64, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 93 disagreed to.
Amendments 26 and 27 moved—[Keith Brown]—and agreed to.
Amendment 94 not moved.
I call Jamie Greene to move or not move amendment 95.
I will just toss a coin here. Hold on.
Amendment 95 not moved.
Amendment 28 moved—[Keith Brown]—and agreed to.
Amendment 96 not moved.
That ends the consideration of amendments.
As members will be aware, at this point in the proceedings, the Presiding Officer is required under standing orders to decide whether in her view any provision of the bill relates to a protected subject matter—that is, whether it modifies the electoral system and franchise for Scottish parliamentary elections. In the Presiding Officer’s view, no provision of the Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill relates to a protected subject matter. Therefore—[Interruption.] Sorry, could I just have a bit of quiet while I do this? Therefore, the bill does not require a supermajority to be passed at stage 3.
Before I invite John Swinney to open the debate, I call on him to signify Crown consent to the bill.
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill, has consented to place her prerogative and interests, in so far as they are affected by the bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the bill.