Official Report 998KB pdf
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-14655, in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville, on Scotland stands with Ukraine. I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak button.
14:56
It has been more than two and a half years since Russia illegally and without provocation initiated a full-scale invasion of our democratic ally Ukraine. A war that those in the Kremlin thought would take days endures as Ukraine continues to fight bravely for its sovereignty, its people and democracy. I will take a moment to reflect on the journeys of the millions of people who have been forced to leave behind all that is familiar to them—their homes, schools, jobs and families—to flee the devastation of Russian aggression.
Scotland has welcomed thousands of displaced families who have travelled across Europe under the most challenging of circumstances. Some of them have witnessed the worst atrocities and many understandably miss and are deeply concerned for those back home but, in the face of a humanitarian crisis, they made those difficult choices to deliver their families to safety.
I feel a profound sense of sadness to think that we are now moving towards a third year of the conflict—another year in which families will be separated and the lives of innocent people will be turned upside down. Therefore, it is the right time for the Parliament to come together once again in defiance of aggression to say that Scotland stands with Ukraine.
We stand with each other and with every person who has sought refuge in our country from wars and persecution from across the world. I know that the people of Scotland agree. For centuries, we have been known all over the world to be a welcoming nation.
Since the start of the war, Scotland’s people have opened their doors and their hearts to the people of Ukraine. To date, more than 27,000 displaced people have arrived in the United Kingdom with a Scottish sponsor and more than 21,000 have been sponsored by the Scottish Government. We have welcomed more than twice as many Ukrainian people per capita as any other part of the UK.
Although many Ukrainians have been helped by the Scottish welcome, in turn, we are rewarded by the Ukrainian families who have come here. I say thank you to those from Ukraine who have made Scotland their home for now. I thank every family for the contributions that they have made in our towns, cities, villages and island communities across Scotland. We have benefited from their community spirit, hard work and friendship.
Like Scotland, Ukraine has a very rich cultural heritage. Many Scots, whether they are colleagues or classmates—I know that ministers are included—have enjoyed sharing stories and learning more about our Ukrainian friends and their country. Only earlier this month, I had the pleasure of visiting the community hub that the Association of Ukrainians in Great Britain recently opened in Glasgow. As well as being guided through its extensive programme of community outreach, I was shown some beautiful works of art that were influenced by Ukraine’s famous Petrykivka style.
Perhaps the best-known art movement to come out of Glasgow was that of the Glasgow boys, who, in the 19th century, found inspiration in the works of their European peers. It seems fitting that Glasgow continues to be introduced to and influenced by the art of our overseas visitors. I have no doubt that the rich cultural influences that have been brought to us by the people of Ukraine will have a lasting impact for a great many years to come, even once victory has been declared.
However, the people of Ukraine have offered more than cultural enrichment. Our industries, businesses and workplaces are benefiting from the skills and commitment of Ukrainian workers such as the pioneering group of Ukrainian women who are carving a niche in filling Scotland’s much-needed tech roles. Thanks to a training scheme that is delivered in partnership by the Royal Bank of Scotland, Code First Girls, Capital City Partnership, Equate Scotland and the Data Lab, Ukrainian women are gaining vital new skills, with many securing engineering roles in RBS’s Edinburgh headquarters. It was heart-warming to hear from one of those women that, although she had thought that she would have to abandon her dreams to study technology when she was forced to flee Ukraine, thanks to the programme, she has received the qualifications that she needed to enable her to build her tech career in Scotland—and, I hope, one day, in her homeland of Ukraine.
My message to those who have settled from Ukraine is that they are, and always will be, very welcome here. They will always be proudly Ukrainian, but I hope that, during their time in Scotland, they will also consider themselves new Scots.
I am in no doubt that every member of Parliament has been shocked, appalled and saddened by the violence and the humanitarian crisis that have been caused by the illegal war. Everyone in Scotland, and the international community, is horrified by the atrocities that are inflicted daily on the people of Ukraine. Intentionally directing missile attacks against civilians and civilian infrastructure constitutes war crimes.
The cabinet secretary referred to people being trained in Scotland. However, at the cross-party group on Ukraine on Tuesday evening, it was reported that, sometimes, people who come with qualifications find it difficult to get jobs here and to be accepted.
I have discussed that very important point both with Ukrainian colleagues since their arrival and with the Ukrainian consul. The Scottish Government is doing what it can in that field. John Mason will be well aware that, particularly in some of the professions—for example, when it comes to the Nursing and Midwifery Council—the issue is outwith the control of any Government. I assure John Mason that, if there is work that the Scottish Government can do within our own powers, rather than those of independent regulators, we are very keen to continue with such work. I thank the cross-party group for its continuing work to raise awareness on such issues.
When I speak to the Ukrainian consul, he tells me movingly about the soldiers who fight daily for their country—even as we sit today in the comfort of the chamber. They are greatly comforted to know that their families are being looked after and are safe in our friendly atmosphere in Scotland.
That assurance that we are playing our part for a family in the most unimaginable times is such an important effort that the Scottish Government, our local authorities, third sector partners and, indeed, our communities, I am sure, are determined to continue. We all wish a speedy victory for Ukraine and a resolution that restores peace and allows Ukraine and its people to recover from the scars of war that have been inflicted on them.
Providing support and sanctuary for the people of Ukraine will continue to be a priority for the Government, with the support of our partners. As I mentioned, since the start of the war, the important role of local authorities, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, third sector organisations and many volunteers has been remarkable. They have worked tirelessly to provide those who are newly arrived in Scotland with the support and advice that they need to access a wide range of services and opportunities. They have supported many to find long-term housing and access to education in our schools, colleges and universities, and have cultivated many community programmes to help Ukrainians to make Scotland their home.
I extend my heartfelt thanks to each and every member of staff, volunteer and host for everything that they have done. Their efforts are making a positive impact on many lives and are further strengthening the bond between Ukraine and Scotland, which will last into the future.
Many of those efforts have required investment. This year, the Scottish Government will invest more than £40 million in the Ukrainian resettlement programme, which is in addition to our investment of more than £300 million in the two years since the war began. Such investment ensures that Ukrainian people can rebuild their lives and their communities for as long as they need to call Scotland their home. It includes supporting families to move into longer-term housing through the Ukraine longer-term resettlement fund, which has invested about £27 million to bring around 1,290 homes into use across Scotland and provide accommodation for more than 2,100 Ukrainian people.
We continue to work with councils and housing associations on new applications to maximise the number of homes that can be supported by the fund. Some £5 million of capital has been specifically allocated to that budget in the current financial year. We are keen to ensure that we continue to support people into longer-term accommodation. Published data shows that, as of 29 July, 1,145 people who had been displaced from Ukraine were in welcome accommodation, and they occupied 679 rooms. That is a reduction of just over 80 per cent from the peak that we saw in November 2022.
As a nation, Scotland stands for democracy, human rights and the rule of law, both at home and abroad. It is right that we play a key role in supporting humanitarian aid overseas. It is also important that we look to the future and ensure that we support our friends to rebuild their economy, cities and infrastructure so that they can once again become a prospering nation after their victory.
Since 2022, the Scottish Government has given £4 million in financial aid to provide basic humanitarian assistance, including health, water and sanitation facilities and shelter for people who are fleeing the war. That includes provision for the HALO Trust, the Dumfries-based international non-governmental organisation, which is clearing unexploded ordnance in the areas around Kyiv that were liberated from Russian control.
We are also proud to share our expertise to benefit the future of Ukraine. The Scottish Government’s chief parliamentary counsel has been working hard to support Ukraine’s Parliament. Working with colleagues in the UK, and gathering support from across the Commonwealth, he has provided guidance on enhancing its legislative capability and has presented on that topic to Rada members and senior officials. That programme of work is being delivered in partnership with the Westminster Foundation for Democracy.
In addition, the John Smith Trust has undertaken exceptionally important work through its Ukrainian women’s leadership programme, which is supporting Ukrainian women as they do the best that they can to provide for themselves and their families when they are here, and, once again, to think to the future, when they will return to Ukraine.
Too much time has passed since the illegal invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022, but we must all continue to hope that it will have peace restored soon. Much goes on in our world, and sometimes Ukraine falls from the headlines, but what is important is the message that we send from our Parliament today. Despite that happening from time to time, the Ukrainian people are never far from our thoughts, and they are in our hearts. We will continue to support them—now, and for as long as they need us.
Slava Ukraini!
I move,
That the Parliament reiterates its unwavering solidarity with the people and government of Ukraine in the face of Russia’s devastating illegal war; pledges that Scotland will continue to be a welcoming nation for those people who have sought refuge in the country from war and persecution, including refugees, people seeking asylum, people relocated from Afghanistan and displaced people from Ukraine; thanks the people of Scotland for opening their hearts and communities to all; recognises the vital role of those organisations and local authorities that have supported displaced Ukrainians to settle into Scotland’s communities; reaffirms that all Ukrainians who have made Scotland their temporary home will be welcome here for as long as they need, and wishes a speedy and peaceful resolution to the war that ensures Ukrainian sovereignty, democracy, independence and territorial integrity within its internationally recognised borders.
15:08
It has been more than two years since Russia’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. However, if we take a closer look at the history of Russian aggression, we can see that the war began eight years ago, with the annexation of Crimea and the arming of Russian separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk. With the rise of social media, we do not have to look far to see videos of drone and artillery attacks while the world watches on in horror.
As the General Assembly of the United Nations gathers in New York this week, it is right that we reaffirm our support for Ukraine as it continues to fight for its sovereignty and territorial dignity. Yesterday, President Zelenskyy addressed delegates, when he gave yet another defiant speech calling for real peace. He accused Russia of plotting catastrophic attacks on Ukrainian nuclear plants, following intelligence that he had received. We can all agree that an attack of that scale would be devastating. That is why the United Kingdom must do all that we can to support Ukraine’s right to democracy and freedom.
In previous debates about the war in Ukraine, I focused on the real human cost of war, and I will continue with that theme today, because many children in Ukraine have known only destruction, displacement, violence and separation from family and friends. More than 2,000 children have lost their lives since the beginning of the conflict, and as the war rages on, children are being exposed to abuse, sexual exploitation and human trafficking. They are being robbed of their childhood, and many bear scars from which they may never recover.
Children of this war have had to endure two years of catastrophic disruption to their schooling, and many cherished moments that should have been spent with their loved ones have been replaced by fear, anxiety and death. It has robbed them of their education, their happiness and their hope. Children in this situation are paying an extraordinary price at the hands of Russian aggressors. That is why we must stand with Ukraine—for their children and for their future. Scotland must continue to be that welcoming nation that we have been since the start of the war.
Around 27,000 Ukrainians have arrived here since the beginning of the war to flee from the horrors that are unfolding at home. Many Scots opened their homes and their hearts, providing stability, and although the settlement schemes may not have been perfect, many Ukrainians have left their mark here in Scotland. Over the past year, many have decided to return home. Ukrainians love their country. They do not want to be separated from their loved ones and their home for a prolonged period.
One of those is a formidable woman, Tetiana Hurn, whom I have mentioned on many occasions in the chamber. She returned to her home town back in July. She is a talented artist and, while Tetiana lived here in Scotland, she used her gift to give back to Scottish communities. She painted murals for the Moira Anderson Foundation and Falkirk Business Hub in my region. She was commissioned to do artworks in North Berwick and Musselburgh. If you wander down North Berwick’s High Street, you will marvel at the mural that she painted to thank the Scottish people for their hospitality and warm welcome. I mentioned earlier the devastating impact that war has on children. I was really pleased to find out that Tetiana is back home and painting more murals to boost morale and empower young people through art. She truly is an inspiration.
Culture and art are important during times of conflict. I am pleased that the cabinet secretary also picked up on the importance of sharing cultures between us here in Scotland and our Ukrainian friends. Art serves as a visual and emotional record of wartime events, preserving the human experiences and the broader implications of conflicts. It can also be a tool for reconciliation. Ukrainians have drawn on our culture sector to speak about war and their experiences of being in Scotland. An excellent example of that is Class Act Ukraine in Scotland, which is run by Traverse Theatre. The scripts, written by Ukrainian young people and supported by three acclaimed international playwrights and the University of Edinburgh helped to unlock their creativity and potential. Each of the scripts was brought to life by professional artists, which created a bond between our cultures.
In Fife, the Forthview parish church and Dalgety Bay congregation hosted a series of events for refugee week, including a photographic exhibition in June that focused on Ukrainian experiences, which was created by Ukrainian families who regularly meet at the church. The exhibition displayed pictures from before and after the Russian invasion, showing the horrifying realities of war. That is not only an area of reflection for local people but a poignant reminder of how destructive the war has been for Ukraine’s infrastructure and economy. We should celebrate the fusion of cultures and the way in which Ukrainians have integrated into our communities, especially in times of darkness.
As long as the war continues, we must continue to open our hearts and our homes to the people of Ukraine. Before I conclude my remarks, I want to address concerns about the Scottish Government’s supersponsor scheme. This is by no means a criticism; it is more of a probing question for the cabinet secretary, if she can cover it in her closing remarks. In March, the Government announced that the scheme would be temporarily paused for three months, but we are approaching October and the scheme remains paused.
Because wars are unpredictable, and given the recent significant threats from the Kremlin, this is the right time, in my view, for the Scottish Government to review that pause. Families in Ukraine will rightly be concerned about Putin potentially targeting nuclear plants.
I hope to be able to reassure Meghan Gallacher that the scheme is kept under review regularly and that we will continue with that, because we recognise that we have an obligation to continue to consider not just what is happening here but what is still happening in Ukraine. I hope that I can give her that reassurance.
I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for reassuring the Parliament today on the supersponsor scheme. If Scotland is to stand with Ukraine, we must continue to have such schemes in place to ensure that, should people feel unsafe or in need of further refuge, we are there to support them should they decide to make Scotland their temporary home.
My focus today has been on the devastating impact that the war has had on children and young people. I will leave the chamber with a quote from Sonia Khush, the country director for Save the Children in Ukraine, who said recently:
“Not a single child in Ukraine has been spared this war and the atrocities it brought. There is no place across the entire country where children can feel safe, let alone the frontline areas. It is heartbreaking to see children who cannot speak or fear playing or even walking outside because of the immense distress they suffer day after day.”
That is a really solemn message, showing why Scotland must continue to stand with Ukraine.
15:16
It is a privilege to open for Scottish Labour in this debate.
There are days when we will always remember where we were, and events that live long in the memory. For most of us, for the people of Europe and, not least, for Ukrainians, 24 February 2022 will be one of those days. The return of full-scale war to the European continent rocked the foundations of international norms and brought destruction and terror to a country that has only ever sought to exercise its free will and defend its sovereignty.
In beginning our debate this afternoon, it is important that we recognise that, for all the disagreements that we have in this chamber on a day-to-day basis, and for all the disagreements that we have seen in the United Kingdom Parliament on many issues, on this subject we have seen a common sense of purpose and unity across the Parliament. I would extend that to the unity of purpose that we have seen across Scotland.
I am very pleased to see that the new UK Labour Government has continued the strong support for Ukraine that we saw from the previous UK Government. Both the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, David Lammy, were at the United Nations Security Council yesterday, and their comments showed the continuing strength of support and the role that the United Kingdom plays in the international community in galvanising support for Ukraine and standing up to the aggression of Vladimir Putin. That aggression, if unchallenged, sends signals to other malign actors that borders can be drawn by force. That was a very important contribution yesterday.
That is why I think that our continued support for Ukraine is so important. It has been an early priority of the new UK Government, and it has always been a priority of the Scottish Government. We must all continue to engage our allies and friends across Europe and beyond on the collaborative efforts to deliver enhanced assistance for Ukraine. The bravery of Ukrainian citizens and soldiers in the early days of the war, when the survival of Ukraine seemed uncertain, and now, in the face of continued Russian aggression, is inspiring. They need us to continue to offer our support. It is critical that they receive the resource and the training that they need to continue to defend their homeland now.
Over the past few weeks and days, the required discussions have taken place on new packages of artillery, air defence, armoured vehicles, the speeding up of deliveries and the commitment of £3 billion a year in military aid for as long as it takes, as critical elements demonstrating that Ukraine can and will outlast the aggression of Putin. It is the least that we owe to those who are not only justly defending themselves and standing up for democracy and the rules-based international order but defending many of us against threats.
In the face of such colossal human suffering on our doorstep, we must continue to provide all the support that we can, not only to fight against that terror machine that is the Russian Government and establishment but to hold open a door for those people who have been forced to flee their homeland.
As the cabinet secretary and Meghan Gallacher have already done, I pay tribute to the organisations, local authorities and members of the public across Scotland who have welcomed displaced Ukrainians into their homes, communities and hearts. Time and again, people have stepped up to support those refugees who come seeking safety from persecution, violence, and conflict, whether from Ukraine or elsewhere around the globe. They represent the very best of us. Their empathy and generosity of spirit as well as practical support to the nearly 214,000 Ukrainians who have arrived in the UK, including the 155,400 who came through the homes for Ukraine programme, have not gone unnoticed and will not be forgotten.
As I was preparing for the debate, I thought about the Irish proverb “Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireann na daoine”, which means “We live in one another’s shelter”. That is a very apt reflection on the plight of those Ukrainians who could, in another time and place, be any of us. We must keep that thought at the heart of our discussions.
I restate to those Ukrainians who are with us here that Scotland will remain their home, that they will have a welcome here for as long as they need and that support will be provided. We on these benches are always ready to work with the Scottish Government where necessary to continue to adapt and enhance that support, and I am sure that I speak for all parties in the chamber who want to continue to collaborate with the Government on that support. I hope that the spirit of partnership continues in the interactions between the UK Government and the Scottish Government, too.
As part of that support, I am delighted that we continue to have a cross-party group on Ukraine, which discusses all these issues and works with the Ukrainian consul general and Ukrainian organisations across the country to keep these issues alive on the agenda.
I was also pleased to see some recently elected Scottish Labour colleagues in Westminster travel to Ukraine to see first hand the destruction that has been wrought and to consider the support that is needed. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to those former MPs and MPs of all parties who have taken part in that experience and have always stood up for Ukraine.
I pay tribute in particular to Stewart McDonald, who is the former Scottish National Party member for Glasgow South. He has taken a keen interest and has worked across the House of Commons in order to keep the issues alive and to stand up to the Russian aggression. It is important that we recognise that.
In demonstrating our solidarity with, and standing beside, Ukrainian people, and in order to ensure that there is a strong welcome for those who must flee, we must continue to always have it in the forefront of our minds that they have made the ultimate sacrifices for their country’s survival and freedom. Together, for as long as it takes, we will stand to ensure that Putin and his aggression do not win and that Ukraine is victorious.
15:23
I am pleased to be able to contribute to the debate and to add to the recognition of consensus that other speakers, including the cabinet secretary, have already expressed. Paul O’Kane in particular spent a large part of his speech recognising the consensus that exists across political parties.
We are, I am pleased to say, united not only in the condemnation of Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine but in the recognition that it did not begin in 2022 but, in fact, with the invasion and occupation of parts of Ukraine in 2014. We are united in our support for Ukrainian integrity and sovereignty and the desire for the people of Ukraine to live in peace, secure in their internationally recognised borders.
We are also united in recognition of our duty to Ukrainian refugees and, as the cabinet secretary articulately set out, in our gratitude for the contribution that they make to our society. For me, that is a recognition that being able to host refugees and give refuge to anyone who needs it is a position of privilege.
In acknowledging the humanitarian impact of what has unfolded over the past few years, it is important to recognise that, as with any live, on-going conflict, the precise scale of the human cost is hard to know. Most international sources seem confident that, already, it can be measured in the hundreds of thousands of deaths. We need to recognise that fact in the case of Ukrainians, which includes civilians as well as those who have joined the military to defend their country, but it is also worth acknowledging that many of those who have fought on Russia’s side are young soldiers who have been manipulated and lied to by propaganda from Putin’s regime about the reasons for the war, as well as those who are convicts and conscripts.
In relation to the support for Ukrainian refugees, we need to continue to put on record our thanks to the organisations that work with them and continue to provide support. Refugees need a huge range of practical support when they are here, whether that is in relation to immigration documents, housing, money, schools, access to public services, including education and healthcare, or the right to interpreters if refugees need them to enable them to live their lives. Scotland has a proud record of welcoming refugees, and we can—and I believe that we must—go further.
It is worth reflecting, and it is important to recognise, that the fact that Scotland and the UK have risen to the challenge in an open and welcoming way for Ukrainian refugees demonstrates to us that we are capable of doing a damn sight better for refugees from around the world, if we choose to do so. I warmly welcome the political unity that we have shown in welcoming Ukrainian refugees, but I only wish that we were able to rise to the same level and offer the same unity of welcome to those who need refuge from elsewhere in the world. We also need to recognise that a recent report published by the Scottish Government has shown that there are live homelessness cases for displaced Ukrainians in Scotland. There is support in place, but we need to continue to strive to do better.
I am proud of the position that my political family, the Greens across Europe, have taken. Certainly, the European Green Party has been part of the political unity that is in support for Ukraine and opposition to the invasion, but it has also done a great deal to draw the connection to the transition from fossil fuels. That transition away from fossil fuels is not only necessary in the face of climate change but necessary as a way of taking power away from those who abuse it. The geopolitical power of the fossil fuel industry is fundamentally part of Putin’s power and his motivation. The European Greens make the case that more renewables would mean more peace, which I think that we need to recognise.
Again, I repeat my call for the Scottish Government to work with the UK Government, if at all possible, to address those who are still seeking to circumvent the sanctions against Russia, including the company Seapeak Maritime, which is based in Glasgow—in fact, it may even be based in the minister’s constituency—and is still engaging in the trade in Russian fossil fuels. I know that it is not within the power of the Scottish Government to address that, but I would welcome anything that the Scottish Government can do to raise the UK Government’s awareness of that and ensure that such profiteering can be treated as falling within the sanctions so that we can shut that activity down.
I stress that we have to recognise the need for consistency. If we are politically united on the principle that invasion, a war of aggression, the illegal occupation of territory, the targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure and the commission of war crimes are unacceptable and must be opposed, they must be opposed not only in Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, but elsewhere in the world.
We must also recognise the extraordinary gulf between the international response to the invasion and occupation of Ukraine and the international response to the on-going genocide in Gaza and the illegal occupation of Palestine. That comparison is one that should shame the world. We should stand with the people of Ukraine, and we should, equally, stand politically united with all peoples who are subjected to such occupation, invasion and war crimes.
15:30
It is a great and powerful thing when the chamber speaks with one voice, and I believe that we do so this afternoon. Scotland stands with Ukraine, of course, but the Scottish Parliament also stands with our sister, the Verkhovna Rada—the Ukrainian Parliament—in Kyiv.
Let us consider the early hours and days of the full-scale invasion—the extended invasion, if we consider that the invasion began in 2014—in February 2022. A key element of Vladimir Putin’s narrative at that time was that Ukraine was a failed state, and that it was led by corrupt, despotic charlatans in the Rada.
It was immensely important, therefore, that the Rada act with one voice, and with cohesion, to demonstrate that the crucial decisions that were required to put the country on a war footing—to pass legislation, to bring in martial law and to turn the economy over to fighting a defensive war against an illegal occupation by Russia—had to be made by the legitimate organs of state power, albeit in the most horrific and terrible circumstances possible. It hardly bears thinking about—the idea that we could hear artillery fire outside the chamber, and yet still pass vital legislation in the interests of our constituents.
To set that in context, there had been multiple failed assassination attempts that week against Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and Viktor Yanukovych was reportedly waiting in Minsk, in Belarus, to be installed as a puppet president at the behest of Putin. With the Russian army just 20km from the Rada, therefore, the Rada met, and the deputies voted.
We saw images such as former President Petro Poroshenko arriving at the Rada in camouflage fatigues, and Kira Rudyk, who is the leader of Holos, my party’s sister party in Ukraine, pictured barefoot in her living room, holding a Kalashnikov. It was around that time that she was famously interviewed—this, I think, is evidence of her defiance—about being one of the 10 deputies on the FSB’s kill list, and she replied, with some sangfroid, that, a month previously, she had been on a top 10 list of eligible bachelorettes in Kyiv, so those two things cancelled each other out. Such was the defiance, and such was the strength of feeling and unity. The deputies in the Rada voted, by an overwhelming majority, to cease party-political hostilities and come together in the Ukrainian national interest.
I have spoken many times, in many debates, about Ukraine’s defiant defence against Russian aggression, but I have never spoken about the solidarity between our two Parliaments. I think that we need to hold on to that solidarity.
It is vital that we recognise, in debates such as this one, that, every day since 2014, and more recently with the full-scale invasion, Putin has coldly and mercilessly terrorised the people of the sovereign nation of Ukraine, turning historic cities into rubble and battlefields and reducing schools and hospitals to dust. The images of places such as Mariupol, Zaporizhzhia and Kharkiv could come to define the early days of the century. I am proud of the way that this chamber has today, and continuously since 2022, stood united in defiance of Putin and his regime, and stood in solidarity with the people of Ukraine.
Many of us are now under Kremlin sanction for those efforts, but we believe that we need to go further. Liberal Democrats believe that there should be a seizure of frozen Russian assets in the UK, with proceeds being repurposed and directed to financial and military support for Ukraine. Canada became the first G7 country to take that course of action by passing legislation to enable it to do so. The UK Government has reportedly seized around £22 billion of Russian oligarch assets. Imagine what a difference that could make not just to the fighting men and women on the battlefields of Ukraine, but to the humanitarian efforts to rebuild the cities, schools and hospitals that the Kremlin and Putin’s ambitions have laid waste to.
I thank those who are involved in the refugee effort and I take my hat off to the Scottish Government for the supersponsor scheme. The refugee welcome hub is located at Gogar, in my constituency, and I pay tribute to workers such as Gavin and Alistair, who have made the traumatic passage from one war-torn country into our country as seamless and welcoming as possible.
With reports that there are more than 290 homeless applications from displaced Ukrainians who are living in Scotland, we know that there is more still to be done. We can never take our eye off of that ball and we need to make sure that we are doing everything that we can.
I recognise that I am coming towards the end of my allocated time, so I will finish with a reflection on where we are in the year and on the flag of Ukraine. The flag of Ukraine, as many members know, depicts the golden wheat fields of Ukraine under a blue sky. As we meet today at harvest time, that is particularly poignant. In the battlefields of the western front in Flanders, there is something called the iron harvest where, every year, the shrapnel and material of war is ploughed up 100 years after the fighting finished there. That will happen in the fields of Ukraine 100 years from now, but the trench warfare that we thought was consigned to the past is now happening on our doorstep.
The flag of Ukraine has a deeper meaning. Yes—it shows wheat and sky above it, but, for the Ukrainian people, that also means freedom above bread. That has always struck me as a poignant example of the defiance and resistance of the Ukrainian people. They deserve our respect.
Glory to the heroes. Glory to Ukraine. Slava Ukraini. Heroyam slava. [Applause.]
As the umpire in the chair, I am required to say to the people in the public gallery, who are most welcome to our Parliament to hear this important debate, that we do not encourage clapping.
We now move to the open debate. We have some time in hand, so I can be generous with speaking time, and members can be generous with interventions, should they so wish.
15:37
As convener of the cross-party group on Ukraine, I am pleased to have the opportunity to take part in this debate on Ukraine and to highlight the hope and support that the Scottish Government has given, and is still giving, to Ukrainian refugees.
I doubt that many Ukrainians who have come to our country are happy to be refugees. Many have been separated from their country, family, friends, work, education and everything that is familiar to them. To be brought to a new country with a new culture and language must be difficult, to say the least.
Yet, when we look at the situation that they have come from, most of us are horrified. Russia’s invasion of the sovereign nation of Ukraine shocked the world. No one could have conceived of the barbarity with which Russia would pursue its illegal war. The dreadful treatment of Ukrainian civilians and prisoners of war was far from that which is expected of a civilised nation. The fact that those acts, which I believe to be war crimes, took place on an industrial scale and, worse, continue to do so, must appal all of the civilised world.
Ukraine is at war with a rogue state that respects neither human beings nor civilian property. It is no secret that the Russian state has little more respect for the wellbeing of its people than it has for Ukrainians. No one really knows the casualties that Russia has sustained with its mad policy of using its soldiers as cannon fodder.
The courage and resilience of Ukraine and its people will go down in history. Where does Scotland come into that? Quite rightly, the Scottish Government has provided exceptional support, and I will give a brief glimpse into some of that. There is military aid and, as part of the UK, Scotland has shared in the contribution of hundreds of millions of pounds in assistance to the Ukrainian military.
Since February 2022, the Scottish Government has provided more than £4 million of funding for humanitarian aid. The innovative supersponsor scheme allowed thousands of Ukrainians to relocate to Scotland, which has the highest number of total applications and arrivals per head of population of any of the four nations of the UK.
The Ukraine longer-term resettlement fund has contributed more than £50 million for registered social landlords to bring properties into use and to increase the supply of housing. By July 2024, nearly 1,300 properties had been brought into use.
A warm Scots future for Ukrainians has provided £1.5 million to third sector organisations and £3.2 million to local authorities to support staffing of recruitment teams. Those are only some of the initiatives that support Ukrainians in Scotland. We do not have to look far to find other groups that provide support in many shapes and forms. I could mention organisations such as Pickups for Peace, which specialises in securing and supplying four-wheel-drive vehicles to Ukraine.
As I look around at the composition of our cross-party group, I recognise the extraordinary resilience of the Ukrainian people in their present adversity. I recognise the energy and the talent that they represent. Our Ukrainian guests do not simply sit back and wait for handouts to be doled out to them; they actively work together with local partners to better their situation.
Yet, however welcome our Ukrainian refugees might be made in Scotland, it is not the home that they came from. It is hard to read of the atrocities carried out against the Ukrainian people and be unmoved. One report that I found especially concerning was that of the forcible removal of Ukrainian children to Russia, where they are brainwashed into becoming Russian, separated from their parents and adopted by Russian parents far from their own country.
I was sufficiently unhappy that I sought to lodge a parliamentary motion condemning those actions. In the motion, I mentioned that Russian President Vladimir Putin and the children’s rights commissioner for the President of the Russian Federation, Maria Lvova-Belova, were subject to an international arrest warrant, issued in February 2023, in connection with war crimes relating to kidnapping of children and to forced deportations. Alas, the chamber desk rejected the motion because the persons named were subject to the general data protection regulation and could not be named. That was despite the fact that the arrest warrant had been reported widely in the international media.
One solution that was suggested was to obtain written permission from the two named persons to use their names in that context. Fair enough. Accordingly, I wrote to President Putin and to Commissioner Lvova-Belova seeking their permission. I wrote to them care of the Russian consulate general in Edinburgh and received a very prompt response from the consul general, categorically refusing permission for the persons to be mentioned in any motion. I have respected that request and they are not mentioned by name in any motion lodged by me as being subject to an international arrest warrant.
Helpfully, the Russian consul general enclosed a bulletin from Commissioner Lvova-Belova dated October 2023. It was heartwarming to hear how happy the Ukrainian children were in Russian camps, where they were placed for their security, wellbeing and protection. Medical and psychological support was being provided and schooling was available at all levels. I could go on but, frankly, I found it difficult to read such patent propaganda.
I believe that Scotland must speak out against the actions of Russia in this war of aggression—it is too easy simply to stand by. Ukraine is not so very far away from our own shores. I certainly feel threatened by what is happening around us, yet too many seem to be complacent and think that nothing bad will come to our country. I hope that they are correct.
For the present, I welcome the support that the Scottish Government continues to give to our Ukrainian friends, who have become part of our family in Scotland and whom I wish well in their new country, however long they choose to remain.
15:43
It is a pleasure to follow Colin Beattie, and I compliment him not only on his speech but on his initiative in writing to the Russian consulate in Edinburgh, as he did. I think that the names that he was not allowed to mention in his motion have been well heard today in the chamber and, I hope, far wider.
Never in my lifetime did I think that I would see a major war on the continent of Europe, but the spirit and resilience of the Ukrainian people in the face of this unwarranted act of aggression by Putin’s Russia has been truly awe inspiring. I also pay tribute to the people of our own country, as has been mentioned by many speakers, and the way in which they have rallied to support the people of Ukraine.
The homes for Ukraine initiative is an inspiring success, and I am proud that we retain the spirit of generosity and hospitality towards people from elsewhere in times of need and distress. I also want to pay tribute to His Majesty’s Government and the Scottish Government for the work that has been done collaboratively to support Ukrainians who have been brought here to safety.
I am also proud that the United Kingdom has already committed the best part of £10 billion in direct military support and that the British armed forces have given combat training to nearly 50,000 Ukrainian military personnel under operation interflex.
The commitment of the previous Conservative Government to provide Ukraine with at least £3 billion a year in military aid until at least 2030 has been maintained by the incoming Labour Government, and we have provided Ukraine with an additional £5 billion of non-military support and a further £1 billion in humanitarian aid. Britain has been at the forefront of rallying support for Ukraine through diplomatic efforts and, specifically, in proposing the imposition of economic sanctions against Russia.
Britain has assiduously applied those sanctions, as have others, but some of our economic partners have not done so, and that has allowed the back door to Russian trade to be left open. They have put economic self-interest ahead of the peace by helping Russia to evade the full impact of the sanctions. They have made money out of the sanctions while the rest of us have had to deal with the cost of the resulting global inflation. On that matter, there must be a reckoning—a diplomatic and economic cost for sanction-busting Governments.
That brings me to the actions that we must now take. We are in this for the long haul. It is precisely because hostile powers discerned weakness in the resolve of the west that we are where we are today. Repeated acts of open aggression by Russia have gone unchecked: the Russian invasion of Georgia in 2008, the Russian annexation of Crimea in 2014, Russia’s active intervention in the conflict in eastern Ukraine in 2014, the shooting down of flight MH17 in July 2014 by a Russian surface-to-air missile that was launched from pro-Russian separatist territory in eastern Ukraine, and Russia’s large-scale military intervention in Syria in 2015. None of those actions was met with an adequate response by the west. In fact, what Putin clearly perceived was a lack of will on the part of the west to do anything.
Then, in August 2021, there was the shambolic and shameful withdrawal from Afghanistan. Tom Tugendhat said at the time:
“This is a harsh lesson for all of us, and if we are not careful, it could be a very, very difficult lesson for our allies, but it does not need to be.”—[Official Report, House of Commons, 12 August 2021; Vol 699, c 1281.]
Those were prophetic words, because the lesson of the withdrawal from Afghanistan was not lost on Vladimir Putin. He saw the lack of will and patience, to stay the course, and he took the calculated risk that the west would remonstrate, but not much more, if he launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
I am enjoying Stephen Kerr’s remarks very much, and he is right to remind us of Russian aggression. However, does he recognise that there is a large and growing number of Russian civilians, in Russia and overseas, in whose name Vladimir Putin does not act, who deserve our support and support from the west in their efforts to topple Putin?
Alex Cole-Hamilton may know that my family has a particular emotional attachment to the people of Russia. I do not believe that the people of Russia are fully informed in respect of the actions of Vladimir Putin. They have certainly become accustomed to the cost of his actions in Ukraine.
Vladimir Putin took that calculated risk, and I want to draw the lesson from it that, if we do not take the hard decisions to stand up to aggression early, the more terrible and expensive it becomes later. If we are to stop this conflict from escalating into a world war, we need to make it clear that we are prepared to defend ourselves and our allies. It is only when the bully sees that he cannot win that he will sue for peace.
The Prime Minister can send a strong signal of our intent to defend the peace by reinstating the previous Government’s commitment to increase defence spending to 2.5 per cent of gross domestic product by 2030. Because we have—rightly—diverted weapons systems and munitions to Ukraine, we need to replenish our stockpiles. Our armed forces need to pack a bigger punch, and we need scale. Some have argued that we should be putting our defence industrial production capabilities on to a war footing.
If we are serious about keeping the peace, and, after reading what the armed forces minister said yesterday, that sounds like sensible advice to me, we must be prepared to defend it—if necessary, by being ready to go to war.
The message of this debate is that we—Ukraine’s allies—will continue to stand by Ukraine by doing everything in our power to enable the Ukrainians to resist and repel the Russian aggressor. If we do not do what is necessary now, we will head into an abyss.
15:50
In a number of weeks’ time, in our communities we will gather for remembrance day. We will remember the horror of wars past, the loss, the sacrifice, the vulnerability of peace, the need to stand up to tyranny—especially when it is on the march—and the many lessons from history. We will remember the fact that people who died in those wars, or who were around at the time, were people just like us, leading their lives with their families and friends and doing many of the things that we and our constituents do every day.
All those have been emphasised since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. The shocking aspects of the invasion were not only its brutality, which we could see in ways that were not available with the technology of the previous century, but that the people of Ukraine were seeing the loss of their homes; they were engaged in the need to flee and were having to make horrible decisions about whether to go with their children to safety or stay and play a part in the defence of their democracy and territorial integrity. That was all there for us to see.
When so many of our fellow human beings came to our shores, those things were emphasised even more. Our attachment to the idea of their struggle being our struggle was only strengthened.
The Scottish Government’s proactivity, as well as that of the British Government, in supporting the people of Ukraine, should be commended and recognised. For me, as MSP for Edinburgh Northern and Leith, that was most pertinent and of most impact in the form of the refugee ship that was at Leith docks. The work that was done by ministers, officials, local government, volunteer organisations and the community of Leith to make our Ukrainian friends welcome in their time of real need made me proud as a constituency MSP and as a Scot.
The contribution of the new Scot Ukrainians, whether during their time in Edinburgh Northern and Leith and elsewhere in this city or in what they have done since, should not be underestimated. What they have brought has enriched our communities. They have been able to do that not only because of their own initiative and determination to play a positive part in Scottish society while they are here, but because organisations such as AUGB Edinburgh and Multi-Cultural Family Base, and even organisations like Leith Athletic Football Club, have all done good work to ensure that families and children have felt welcome and that people can engage in the labour market.
One of the things that we must continue to do—which is why the debate is important—is consider how to enhance and support the life of Ukrainians in Scotland. The cross-party group on Ukraine has done some really good work on that so far.
I take the points that were made about the professions. I have a bit of casework at the moment that involves a constituent of mine who has a practice in the cabinet secretary’s constituency. There are challenges in how to encourage the professional bodies to help people who have skills to work in our communities, so I would like to support the Government in that.
I thank Ben Macpherson for giving way in what is a superb speech.
I make this point very gently, because I want to keep the cross-party unity. Does Mr Macpherson accept that the right to work should be a universal right not only for the Ukrainians who now stay in Scotland, but for all those who have fled violence, persecution and war and who now stay in Scotland?
I do. There are people here who want to contribute, so why would we not set a legal framework that enables people to do that? I find it perplexing that we have not got to that point already.
All the contributions that Ukrainians have made in my constituency—which I know they have made across our community—and the friends and constituents who are Ukrainian whom I support and engage with, as well as everything in the international and domestic media, keep Ukraine in our minds every day. We need continually to recognise and be proactive in supporting the resilience of the Ukrainian people and the struggle for democracy and freedom that they are engaged in.
We cannot take security and peace for granted. It is clear from speaking not only to Ukrainians but to people from Turkey, Azerbaijan, Georgia, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and many other of our European friends and allies that, every day, the threat of Russian aggression is now part of their mindset. We need to make sure that we are not complacent about our peace and security.
That reminds me of a quote from the journalist Martin Wolf that I read at the time of the invasion. He said—I am paraphrasing slightly—that we should still hope that, one day, Russia will get a political regime that is worthy of its contribution to civilisation, but that, right now,
“Russia has emerged as a pariah ruled by a gangster. We cannot live in peace and security with such a neighbour.”
He went on to say that the invasion of Ukraine “must not stand”, not only for the sake of Ukraine, but because any success for Putin
“would threaten us all. We are in a new world now. We must understand that and act accordingly.”
Standing up for Ukraine is also standing up for our shared values. Helping Ukraine is helping humanity. Slava Ukraini!
15:57
This afternoon’s debate is an opportunity for us as a Parliament to reiterate our commitment to supporting Ukraine and its people as they continue to fight against the illegal and unprovoked invasion of their home by Putin’s Russia. When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, it escalated the existing conflict, with devastating consequences. Among the fatalities, thousands of civilians, including children, have been killed, and millions of Ukrainians have been displaced from their homes and have fled the country, which has created Europe’s largest refugee crisis since world war two.
Every day that the war continues, the number of casualties and the amount of damage increase. In the media, we hear about war fatigue—sadly, we are getting used to the images and reports that once shocked us. We must continue to be shocked and appalled by what is happening. That it has endured for so long should only strengthen our response, rather than allowing us to stop paying attention.
Many Ukrainians have come to Scotland to seek refuge. This afternoon, we recognise the work of the many organisations, local authorities and individuals who have supported them in doing so. We pay tribute to all those Scots who took Ukrainian refugees into their homes and helped them to find the support that they needed. Ensuring that they were able to access housing, education, healthcare and other services was an important part of allowing people from Ukraine to live as normal a life as they could.
In Mid Scotland and Fife and across Scotland, people stepped up and welcomed Ukrainians into their homes and communities. Through the sponsorship scheme, thousands of families came to the region, and many are still living and working in our communities. An important part of making them feel welcome was the provision of social opportunities by groups such as the one at Forthview parish church in Dalgety Bay. When people arrived from Ukraine, the church was a place for them to meet and to get practical support, and a number of Ukrainian families regularly met there.
Although they have now moved on from host families to their own tenancies, the Dalgety Bay ladies continue to meet and, as Meghan Gallacher recognised earlier, their stories were highlighted as part of refugee week in June, when the church hosted an exhibition about their lives before and after the Russian invasion, with photographs to demonstrate the impact of war on Ukrainian people.
I am the convener of the cross-party group on Poland, which has strong links with the Ukrainian community in Scotland, and I welcome both the establishment of a cross-party group on Ukraine and Colin Beattie’s contribution this afternoon. In the weeks following the invasion, the CPG on Poland heard from the Polish and Ukrainian consuls in Scotland. I recognise the important role that the Polish consulate and community have played and are playing in supporting Ukrainians in Scotland.
The CPG on Poland recently hosted elected members of the Polish Senate, and we discussed the key role that Poland is playing in supporting people who had to flee Ukraine. Poland is a key military supporter of Ukraine, has a security deal with the country and has reiterated support for Ukraine defending itself. However, that is much more than a security arrangement. By May 2022, 3.5 million Ukrainians—53 per cent of those who fled the country—had crossed the border into Poland. The welcome and solidarity that they had from Polish people has been reflected in the response that we have seen from the Polish community here in Scotland.
We are focusing on the domestic response to the war in Ukraine, the support that we are providing to Ukrainians who have come to the UK for protection and safety and the resilience of the Ukrainian people during this horrendously difficult time. In that context, I will mention the BBC World Service.
Sources of trusted journalism are now completely or partially blocked in about 75 per cent of countries around the world. Global conflicts and tensions are now accompanied by the easy spread of disinformation and propaganda. The BBC World Service plays a vital role as an independent, accurate and trusted broadcaster, and it is primarily funded by the UK licence fee. In 2010, the previous UK Government made a hasty decision to transfer responsibility for funding the service from the then Foreign and Commonwealth Office to the BBC licence fee, but it partially reversed that decision in 2016, which led to an increase in staffing and activity. I hope that the new UK Government will affirm a commitment to the service and recognise its vital role as a national asset.
The BBC World Service broadcasts in Ukrainian and Russian. Although it has been banned in Russia since 2022, following the invasion of Ukraine, because of its drive to report on the realities of war, to accurately record the number of fatalities on both sides and to report international reactions, it still broadcasts into parts of Russia, where it is an important source of information. While Putin pursues a war of aggression on the ground in Ukraine, there is also a communications war and a battle over who owns the narrative.
Patrick Harvie spoke about the manipulation of the Russian people and the lies that they have been told. It is important that trusted sources of information can get into the country, but Russian journalists have been forced to leave while we know that the Russian media is expanding and making big investments around the world. We must be alert to that increasing threat to truth and transparency.
As part of the UK, we have provided military support and aid, training for personnel and economic and diplomatic support to allow Ukraine to defend itself in this conflict, while we have offered a place of refuge for those who have been displaced. We have heard many examples today of how Ukrainians have been welcomed into homes and communities across the country. Scotland and its people have responded with an open heart to those who are experiencing the devastation of that conflict, and we must keep offering our support as this terrible war continues.
16:03
My Ukrainian friend Andre has been constantly in my thoughts since the conflict there escalated in 2022, and I will take some time to share his story, because it really captures much of what the war means on a human level.
I met Andre almost 20 years ago when he was barely out of his teens. He had an infectious humour and, despite being far from home, he became part of my family. He would join us for meals, fitting right into the chaos of all the children running around, and every meal came with his hilarious observations of life. He used to call me his Scottish mama and, although I was actually only a few years older than him, I embraced that title because it was an honour to be a stand-in family for him when he needed that most.
Even now, amid the horrors of war back in his homeland, Andre never forgets to send me a birthday message. It always feels surreal to hear from someone who is living in a war zone—someone who sends me well wishes from a place where every day is a fight for survival. He lives in one of the hardest-hit regions in Ukraine and vlogs about his experience, sharing the unimaginable through his Instagram stories. Some nights he captures the whistles of the missiles going through the air before they hit the ground with a thunderous explosion. It is harrowing to witness the conflict unfold through my friend’s eyes. There are nights when we do not know whether we will hear from him again the next day but, each day when he appears, it brings a sigh of relief.
Before the war, Andre had his own grocery delivery service. As time went on, it evolved into a saving grace for many people. He now delivers food and parcels to those who are in need, supported by donations worldwide. He takes food parcels to some of the hungriest people in his war-torn land. In the past year, I have seen him delivering food to elderly folk in an abandoned care home, to terrified women and children in underground train stations and to some of the most vulnerable groups in the most dangerous situations.
Andre’s humour and warmth have never left him. He gifts flowers to elderly women. He calls one of them his babushka and she lives for his visits. Only a few months ago, Andre lost his dog—his loyal companion—and, days later, his mother. Still, he pushes forward. He does so not for himself but for the people who rely on him and his service. That is the spirit of Ukraine—a resilience that refuses to be extinguished by war—and it is the spirit that Scotland proudly stands with.
Scotland has always been a welcoming place for those who are fleeing war and persecution. Last year, I met a Ukrainian family that my father had befriended. Vadim, his wife and his two daughters are all profoundly deaf. They uprooted their life because of the war and drove all the way to Scotland. Although my dad and Vadim were from two different countries, their language barrier was broken due to the power of sign language.
We spent time last year socialising, and the young girls loved jumping on the trampoline with my two granddaughters. It was a joy to see those children feeling carefree after what they had been through. I even took Vadim to the Buckie car show, and he was treated to a proper north-east fish supper. I might add that it was fish straight from the boat—it is only the best up in the north-east. Throughout that time, we knew that, deep down, their homeland and their people were never far from their minds.
Those connections are a powerful reminder that, throughout the chaos of war, the coming together of humans in genuine ways can transcend the barriers of conflict. Whether we are bound by language, humour or simply being a stand-in family member, I am proud to stand with Ukraine.
Since Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, Scotland has opened its arms to the people who are fleeing war and persecution. More than 27,000 displaced Ukrainians have found refuge here. That is the highest figure per capita of any UK nation. Our warm Scots welcome has been more than just a phrase: it is a promise.
We have welcomed those individuals not just for a brief stay but with a commitment to support them as they rebuild their lives. However, as we continue to offer refuge to those who are fleeing war, we must also recognise the need for stability. Many Ukrainians are beginning to rebuild their lives in Scotland, finding work, enrolling their children in school and contributing to the fabric of our communities, but we need to ensure that they have the resources and the support to feel truly at home for as long as they need to.
Andre’s story and the stories of people such as Vadim and his family remind us that war strips away the trivialities of life and leaves us with what truly matters, which is human connection, resilience and compassion. This is the kind of nation that we are: one that steps up in times of need and offers refuge not just for today but for as long as it is needed—until peace is restored and Ukraine’s sovereignty is fully respected.
As I reflect on Andre’s resilience, on the courage of Vadim and his family and on all the Ukrainians who now call Scotland home, I am filled with pride. Their stories are a part of our story now, and their fight for survival is our fight for justice and peace. Scotland stands with Ukraine, today and always. Slava Ukraini!
16:09
It is right that we commit our unwavering support for Ukraine and the deterrence of the illegal Russian invasion. However, before I discuss what we need to do, I need to look back at what we failed to do.
I need not remind the Parliament that, on 5 December 1994, the UK signed the Budapest agreement, along with Belarus, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Russia and the US, undertaking that we would protect Ukraine’s sovereignty. All the countries stood by to allow Ukraine to disarm—to remove the nuclear weapons that had been left on its soil. The US undertook to do that, and we paid for it, along with many other countries.
It was therefore sad that, on 27 February 2014, when Russia invaded Crimea, and on 21 March that year, when Putin annexed it, we did nothing. In fact, Barack Obama stood back and said that Russian actions were a problem but not a threat to the US. How wrong he was, because those actions and those alone emboldened Putin. It was a huge mistake. As the skirmishes continued along the Donetsk and Luhansk border, we should have done more. We did little.
On 24 February 2022, when Russia invaded Ukraine, we finally mobilised. We took action. We—the UK especially—provided a huge amount of anti-tank weaponry to deter the Russians, but it required the Ukrainians to hold them back. Since that time, there has been almost a stalemate. First, the Wagner group forced people forward in its special military operation; meat grinder operations killed hundreds of people; waves of convicts and criminals were pushed forward; and war crimes were committed in children’s hospitals in Kyiv and Dnipro. That was absolutely horrendous.
We—the west—did much. As I said, the UK supplied next-generation light anti-tank weaponry. The west as a whole supplied—I think I have these totals right—382 tanks, 485 howitzers and 82 multibarrelled missile launchers. However, that is not enough—it is so not enough—because Ukraine stands firm where it can, using the weapons that we have given it, but is running out of ammunition to deter the Russians, who seem to push forward relentlessly, ignoring the costs.
We have given financial support. So far, I think, £380 billion has been given to Ukraine, and the UK has given £13 billion. That sounds like a massive amount of money—and it is—but it is not achieving what we need to do. As a soldier, I know that there are no half attempts at war. We either commit fully to it and allow the Ukrainians to defend themselves properly, or we just prolong the pain and the suffering. Shortly, therefore, we will have to come up with a decision on what we allow Ukraine to do with some of the weapons that we have given it.
There will be some disquiet and concern when we talk about the Storm Shadow missile that has been provided to Ukraine being used in Russia, but Russia is where all the ammunition is being stockpiled to be forced forward into Ukraine. We cannot hold the Ukrainians’ arms behind their backs and stop them from defending themselves against Russia.
I know that it will take time, and I know that we will wrestle with it, as we wrestled with the issue of supplying aeroplanes and tanks across the border, with Russia saying that that would be a direct threat to it. Well, the biggest direct threat to Russia was invading Ukraine, and we have to be whole-hearted in our defence of Ukraine and give it the resources that it needs to defend itself properly, because I do not believe, at this stage, that there is any way to negotiate with a megalomaniac—a narcissist—in the form of Putin.
Putin is prepared to allow his country to suffer impossible losses. I think that the latest figure is 70,000 Russian dead. When will enough people in Russia understand the casualties that they are suffering? Only then will Putin be forced to the table. We need to ensure that that happens. All wars are eventually solved not by armed conflict but by politicians, when armies either have some form of victory or run out of the resources that they need to continue fighting. We must ensure that Ukraine does not run out of such resources. Only once this war has been won—and we have to understand that it is a war—will we be able to give the refugees in Scotland what they really want, which is to go back to their own country.
My plea to the Scottish and UK Governments, and to everyone else across the world, is to continue to provide Ukrainians with weapons—but with enough weapons so that they do not have to stop their offensives and their defence of their country because they are running out of ammunition.
16:15
I am pleased to speak in the debate. I associate myself with the opening remarks of the cabinet secretary and, indeed, with those of members across the chamber. How good it is to see representatives of our Scots-Ukrainian community here with us in the public gallery. I am sure that all of us here welcome them warmly.
The debate comes at a vital time for Ukraine and for the prospects of its victory against Russian aggression. That is essential for democracy not only in Ukraine but across Europe. First and foremost, Ukraine is fighting for its own survival. However, we must never forget that this is a battle waged on behalf of all of us. If Vladimir Putin were to emerge victorious in Ukraine—an unthinkable prospect—the threat that he would then pose to Russia’s neighbours, and to peace across Europe, would be grave indeed. That is why solidarity in deeds as well as in words—in fact, in deeds more than in words—matters so much.
On that front, the Scottish Government, the Scottish Parliament and the whole country can be proud. As others have said, more than 26,000 Ukrainians have sought refuge here in Scotland, most of them under the supersponsor scheme that I was proud to establish during my time as First Minister. Earlier in the debate, I was pleased to hear the cabinet secretary confirm that reopening that scheme remains under consideration. It is also worth mentioning, albeit as an aside, that the process of getting it up and running was an example of excellent co-operation between the Scottish and UK Governments—one from which lessons could perhaps be learned.
I agree with Patrick Harvie that it is our moral obligation as a country—indeed, as human beings—to welcome refugees and not to demonise them. That should apply to all people who seek refuge, from wherever in the world they come. The supersponsor scheme is vital, but of course it is not the only support shown by the Scottish Government. There has also been significant humanitarian aid, consignments of medical supplies and support for the crucial work of the Halo Trust. Our support also encompasses strong backing for effective sanctions. As other members have noted, right now it is open to question how effective the sanctions regime is. That must now be reinforced.
As President Zelenskyy is in the United States presenting his plan for victory, the point that I want to make, and which other members made earlier in the debate, is about the wider situation and the importance of not only maintaining solidarity with Ukraine but stepping it up. In the past few days, we have reached a critical juncture. Despite Ukraine’s military successes in recent times, Russian forces have made significant territorial gains in the east of the country. They are now bearing down on further targets, which, if they succeed, would threaten Ukraine’s supply routes into the eastern region of Donetsk.
That is happening right now, and at a time when, whether we like it or not—and we in the chamber do not like it—the attention of the world is drifting. The focus on the developing horror in the middle east is both understandable and right. Indeed, as Patrick Harvie rightly said, our principled support of Ukraine should apply just as strongly now to the people of Palestine and, indeed, to others who are being threatened with aggression across our world. However, that should not, and must not, be at the expense of Ukraine.
It is also a hard but inescapable fact that political turmoil and instability are threatening the solidity of the coalition that has supported Ukraine over the past two years—for example, we have the rise of the far right in parts of Germany and, of course, the possible outcome of the US election. I will be far from the only one in the chamber who is fervently hoping for a Kamala Harris victory in November but, unfortunately, the threat of a second Trump presidency cannot be dismissed. One of the many dire consequences of such an outcome could be for Ukraine. The risk of Trump forcing a so-called peace that rewards Putin’s aggression would be real.
Stephen Kerr rightly talked about the disgrace of the withdrawal from Afghanistan, leaving the people—particularly the women—of that country to a terrible fate. However, we should remember that that had its roots in decisions that were taken by Donald Trump to do deals with the Taliban. That should stand as a very clear warning now. This, then, is a time for all those, including Scotland and the UK as a whole, who have stood steadfastly with Ukraine to step up and renew our solidarity. This Parliament is not responsible for decisions on military assistance, but we can and must raise our voices.
The full detail of President Zelenskyy’s plan is not in the public domain, but the key strands, including NATO membership and security guarantees for Ukraine, are known. Aspects of it—in particular, the proposal to allow Western-supplied long-range Storm Shadow missiles to be used against targets in Russia—need careful consideration of the possible consequences. However, as that consideration is being given, we must also remember that Ukraine not winning this war has grave consequences.
Those consequences would be felt most of all by the people of that country, but the hard fact is that we would all pay a price. Ten years ago, when Putin’s assault on Ukraine started with the annexation of Crimea, the world did not act. The hard lesson from that time—that appeasement of brutal narcissists such as Vladimir Putin emboldens them—needs to be learned. Decisions that will help Ukraine to decisively win this war, for the sake of us all, need to be taken, and they need to be taken quickly. As well as continuing with our own acts of support and solidarity, that is a message that this Parliament can and should send very loudly and very strongly today.
I support the motion. Slava Ukraini!
We move to closing speeches.
16:22
I want to reflect again on the political unity that has been expressed across the chamber on a number of fronts. In particular, quite a number of members have spoken about the lives of Ukrainian refugees in their communities the length and breadth of Scotland. The cabinet secretary was the first, but by no means the only, member to reflect on that.
That is a reminder, as I said earlier, of why the opportunity to offer refuge is always a privilege. Far too much of the UK’s political discussion about asylum seekers and refugees is about portraying them as a burden—portraying as a burden the idea that we offer asylum or refuge to those who need it. To be the one who has to flee violence, as those from Ukraine have done, to take a risk to get out and try to find safety, and to ask another country for refuge—that is what it is to bear a burden. To be the one who is asked is a privilege, and we should always remember that.
The images that were most clear to me on our television screens and in our newspapers in the immediate aftermath of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine related to discussions about how to offer safe routes for Ukrainian asylum seekers, how to gear ourselves up to prepare to support and provide safe and secure accommodation for children who had been separated from their families and refugees who had disabilities, who were traumatised by their experiences or who had other specific needs when they arrived. If only those concerns characterised our entire debate on refugees and asylum seekers across Scotland and the UK, and indeed the rest of the world.
Scotland’s and the UK’s unity in our support for Ukrainian sovereignty and the principle of its national self-determination within internationally recognised borders—and condemnation of any country using invasion, occupation or a war of aggression to pursue self-interest, as Russia has done—is important. As several members, including Nicola Sturgeon in particular, towards the end of the debate, reflected, anything that allows the possibility that Russia ends up being rewarded by an imposed unjust peace is not only a threat to Ukraine and Ukrainians but a threat to all countries. I say again that we must follow that principle through—yes, by supporting Ukraine but also by applying it elsewhere.
It is very clear that Russia is in flagrant breach of international law. In fact, it is showing utter disregard for international law. The Geneva conventions require parties to a conflict to distinguish between civilian and military targets. Although they allow civilian-owned infrastructure to be military objectives in some circumstances, that discretion is severely limited. The daily images that we have seen from Ukraine bear out clearly that those basic principles are being ignored by Russia without a shred of concern. There are other international instruments, such as the Rome statute, that prohibit the attacking of civilian targets. The fact that Russia is consistently targeting energy sources in Ukraine, destroying civilian infrastructure and indiscriminately targeting civilian housing demonstrates once again its flagrant disregard.
That reminds us that the framework of international law and security is fundamentally broken. The UN Security Council has among its permanent members the world’s biggest arms dealers, including the Russian Federation. I think that, technically, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics—the USSR—still holds that seat, but in practice it is held by the Russian Federation. In fact, it rose to the presidency of that institution at the time of the full-scale invasion. The UN Security Council is the institution that is charged with the preservation and maintenance of world peace. How on earth are we to accept that it is a valid approach to preserving world peace when those perpetrating war are given permanent and privileged status in it?
If peace is a global objective, we have to recognise that justice is a prerequisite for peace, and far too much of the world’s power is wielded by those who profit from war. One member suggested today that, if we want to keep the peace, it means arming for war. I do not believe that peace is achieved on the basis of the fear of consequences. All that that achieves is the cessation of hostilities until one side or the other detects an opportunity or a chance to act. Pouring ever more of the world’s resources into the arms trade will not make the world safer; it will only give ever more power to those who profit from war.
War is an atrocity that is committed by the powerful against the powerless. We need a recognition that western countries that are currently quite rightly rallying support for Ukraine have been complicit for a long time—over decades—in allowing kleptocrats, human rights abusers, fossil fuel profiteers and those involved in the arms trade to amass ever more power. If we want to break that cycle, we have to take power away from those who so clearly abuse it. Putin is the most obvious example of that on the world stage at the moment, but he is by no means the only one.
16:29
It is a pleasure to close the debate for Scottish Labour. We are now two and a half years into Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, with the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives, millions of people displaced and countless lives forever changed to satisfy the ego of a despot.
Despite the challenges that that war has brought, which are minuscule in comparison with those that people who live in Ukraine face, we have made it clear, once again, that we stand against aggression and with the people of Ukraine.
I am proud that the Scottish Parliament is united in its support for Ukraine. I agree with members including Alex Cole-Hamilton that this is not a party-political issue and that our position is based on principles that we all uphold and in which we all believe.
Democracy, freedom, the right of all to self-determination—those are the values that Putin has discarded with his imperialist project. As he threatens those values with contempt, he tightens his grip on Russia: on Tuesday, the United Nations special rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Russian Federation presented her report, which found that
“The country is now run by a state-sponsored system of fear and punishment, including the use of torture with absolute impunity.”
We must do as much as we can to support Ukraine and its people, so that Putin’s autocracy is not unleashed on them.
Members including Stephen Kerr have mentioned the UK Government sending billions in military aid. Although the party in government at Westminster has changed, our support for Ukraine will not. The work that the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are doing should show Putin that we are not going anywhere.
Paul O’Kane rightly raised the Prime Minister’s recommitment of £3 billion a year in military aid for as long as it takes for Ukraine to win. There is also a commitment to train Ukrainian troops throughout 2025 and to send more equipment, because that war is not just Ukraine’s, but all of ours. As Nicola Sturgeon mentioned, its outcome is key to the security of Europe and that of the UK. We cannot stand by while civilians die and international law is broken. I join Patrick Harvie and Nicola Sturgeon in stating that that principle must extend to conduct in Gaza and Palestine.
I join the cabinet secretary and others in noting the Scottish public’s support for our Ukrainian friends. Meghan Gallagher mentioned the thousands of Ukrainians that the Scottish public welcomed into their homes, and the thousands more who were welcomed through the supersponsor scheme. Last year, Edinburgh’s welcome hub in Gogarburn house opened, helping people settle here for the long term.
Claire Baker and Colin Beattie mentioned the work that the third sector and other organisations have done to support the settlement of Ukrainians in Scotland: volunteers met almost 4,000 refugees as they arrived in Edinburgh airport; Volunteer Edinburgh distributed thousands of welcome bags; and, earlier this year, South Queensferry’s Hannah Beaton-Hawryluk received an MBE for her work with Edinburgh’s AUGB raising millions in aid. The cabinet secretary noted AUGB’s Glasgow branch.
Members have recognised and reaffirmed that Scotland is a welcoming nation to those who are fleeing conflict or persecution, whether that be in Ukraine, Afghanistan or anywhere else. Two years into the invasion, we must continue to work to ensure that those people who have had to flee their country do not face destitution.
Alex Cole-Hamilton said that almost 300 homelessness applications have been made by Ukrainian households in the past year, which should be concerning to us all. We have done great work so far. The Scottish Government has many avenues of support to ensure that Ukrainians can integrate as best they can. In this debate, we have shown that Scotland’s support for the people of Ukraine has not faltered. To Ukrainians in Scotland, I say: know that you are welcome here and that we stand with you. In his address to Ukrainian nations, President Zelenskyy called for nations to continue to support Ukrainians’ efforts for a just and peaceful future. Scotland will continue to be one of those nations.
16:35
I am grateful for the opportunity to close the debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. There has rarely been a time in the Parliament’s 25-year history when it has been more important to have a clear message on external affairs. When it comes to Ukraine, the message from members on the Conservative benches could not be clearer: we stand with Ukraine; the Parliament stands with Ukraine; and, along with the rest of the United Kingdom, Scotland stands with Ukraine. I hope that that message can be understood as clearly today as it was in February 2022.
Thinking back to that time is a stark reminder of how much uncertainty lay ahead. For the first time in decades, we were witnessing a land war in Europe. All too quickly, we became used to seeing images of shattered and broken cities; of civilians fleeing from their homes in fear and trepidation; and of Russian missiles devastating whole communities every day. Perhaps naively, many of us assumed that those images belonged to the Europe of the 20th century. Yet, all of a sudden, we found ourselves seeing such images in 2022. Two and a half years later, we are still seeing them.
As we debate the issue, I believe that we can be proud of the United Kingdom’s response to the conflict so far. Total military aid has reached £7.8 billion, including £3 billion in support this financial year. Russian forces have lost more than 3,000 tanks, and British anti-tank missiles have no doubt played a key role in that. Meanwhile, operation Interflex has allowed the United Kingdom to train more than 45,000 Ukrainian troops, and I am pleased that the scheme will continue throughout 2025. At the same time, Scotland can be proud of the fact that, since the conflict began, more than 27,000 Ukrainians have been settled in Britain with a Scottish sponsor, which is a massive achievement.
None of us wants to see anything other than a continuation of the fighting spirit of Ukraine and the Ukrainian people—and we have seen that fighting spirit time and time again. Despite how well Ukraine has been able to stand its ground against the Russian offensive so far, the future of the conflict remains uncertain. Reports suggest that the Kremlin is still unwilling to hold genuine peace talks. Meanwhile, President Zelenskyy continues to send a message of hope and positivity. During his visit to the United States this week, he stated:
“we are closer to peace than we think.”
We all hope that that is the case.
Today, President Zelenskyy has presented his victory plan in the White House, and he has talked about that being a path to a “diplomatic way out” of the war, which is also to be welcomed. At the same time, we must understand the complexities of achieving that. I will not be alone in hoping that President Zelenskyy is right about much of that.
Just as with previous debates on the issue, there has been no shortage of important contributions from members across the chamber this afternoon. I will mention some of them.
The cabinet secretary spoke about solidarity and the need to be strong. She also spoke about the community spirit that has been evident across Scotland, and the ability of Scotland and Ukraine to support one another through partnerships in both business and culture. That whole idea of working together and supporting each other has been, and continues to be, crucial.
My colleague Meghan Gallacher spoke about Ukraine’s right to democracy, the country’s culture, the children who have suffered and the individuals who are paying the price for the war day to day. Although those who are here in Scotland are secure, every day, they see and hear what is happening in their homeland, and that is distressing for them.
Paul O’Kane spoke about our common sense of purpose in supporting Ukraine, which is very important. He referred to the need to enhance our support and to supply resources and manpower, and to hold open a door for Ukrainian people. We need support mechanisms in place for our councils and for our communities and community groups.
Political consensus is very important. Alex Cole-Hamilton referred to speaking with one voice, which is vital. Our unity and solidarity defines us. We must ensure that we, as individuals and collectively, put out that message of solidarity for the future.
Stephen Kerr made an eloquent speech, as we have heard him do many times before. He talked about the positive response and the support from the British armed forces, but he also mentioned the fact that, despite the current sanctions, a back door to Russian trade has been left open. Diplomatic and economic support has been put in place, but we need to be in it for the long haul, defend ourselves and stay the course. Those are vitally important messages that we need to get across.
I am delighted about the involvement with the Ukrainian community from those in the Parliament. For example, the cross-party group has supported, and continues to support, work in that regard. Claire Baker talked about truth and transparency, which is vital. The way in which the messages go out—how they are put across—to the nations of the world is important. We need to have spirit—that is vital.
On the day that the war started, Parliament held a debate in the chamber, and all parties sent a clear message of solidarity and support for Ukraine. Back in February 2022, we refused to write off the Ukrainian people in their fight against Putin. Today, in September 2024, we still refuse to do so, and we will fight their corner to ensure that the Ukrainian people are supported.
As nations the world over have said, there can be no suggestion of anything other than providing full support, and no wavering in that support. We must be clear that we will stand by the Ukrainian people for as long as it takes. Once again, I pay tribute to the schools, health organisations, businesses, communities and social enterprises that have provided support—
Will the member take an intervention?
I am happy to do so.
I apologise for cutting across the member’s eloquent comments; I thank him for giving way. He is absolutely right to talk about what a betrayal it would be if we did not stay the course with the people of Ukraine, and the message that that would send out globally. Mr Harvie made that point as well. It would send out the wrong message to the Taliban in Afghanistan, and to the Kurds, who, across four nations in that part of the world, still suffer great persecution. This is about ensuring that the west takes a stand, and does so consistently, and the front line of that stand is to back the people of Ukraine. Would Mr Stewart agree with that?
We have to ensure, as I said, that we have a common sense of purpose. There is an opportunity for us to fight the corner of the Ukrainian people, and we all want to see the end of the war. To make that happen, we have to show solidarity with one another and to each person in the community.
In conclusion, as we approach the thousandth day of the war in Europe, let there be no doubt that Scotland truly stands with the Ukrainian people, as does the United Kingdom. Once again, this Parliament gives its unwavering support, and we look forward to the day when the Ukrainian people can go back, enjoy the opportunities in their homeland and move forward.
16:44
I thank the cabinet secretary for bringing this debate to the chamber and I welcome members’ contributions, which underline our unwavering support for Ukraine and its people. I also welcome the members of the AUGB Edinburgh community who are in the public gallery.
As we sit in this chamber of democracy, it is almost incomprehensible to envisage the atrocities that are being inflicted on the Ukrainian people as a result of Putin’s aggression. We watch the news daily and see the heartbreaking impact of war on families and communities. We are in absolute admiration of the Ukrainian people’s bravery and resilience in their fight for sovereignty, freedom and democracy. The people of Scotland are united and we stand with Ukraine, as we do with all those who seek refuge within our borders.
I will take a moment to respond to the comments of my colleagues around the chamber. I listened carefully to Meghan Gallacher, who eloquently reminded us of the plight of the children and the fact that, for generations, they will be recovering from the trauma of their lost education, childhood and hope. On her comments about the supersponsor scheme, I remind members that current visa holders can apply for an 18-month extension through the Ukraine permission extension scheme, which provides Ukrainians with potentially up to four and a half years of residency in the UK. The scheme will open to applications in early 2025.
Paul O’Kane commented on the importance of a collaborative and cohesive cross-governmental response. I agree with that and we will continue in that spirit with the new UK Government.
Patrick Harvie was right to highlight the need to change the narrative around refugees and asylum seekers from being about their burden to being about our privilege. That was very well put.
With regard to his comments regarding a letter that he and Ross Greer sent to the First Minister on 14 August, the First Minister replied to Patrick Harvie on 18 September to clarify the Scottish Government’s constraints. We cannot impose a blanket ban on Scottish Government support based solely on the fact that companies are on the UN database. Additionally, the letter clarified that no two conflicts are identical and that we have to take decisions against the specific circumstances.
I thank Colin Beattie for his work as convener of the CPG and I thank all of its members. I also thank him for highlighting the efforts of the Scottish Government in supporting Ukrainians by opening not only our hearts but our country. As other members have mentioned, since the war began, 27,000 Ukrainians have been sponsored in Scotland either by individuals or by the Government—twice as many per capita as have been sponsored in other parts of the UK.
My colleagues Alexander Stewart, Foysol Choudhury, Stephen Kerr, Alex Cole-Hamilton and Edward Mountain highlighted beautifully the spirit and resilience of Ukrainians and re-emphasised our standing with Ukraine against Russia’s illegal war against Ukraine and its people.
Claire Baker highlighted the role of churches, which I thought was particularly poignant. It is something that we often forget to mention. As places of sanctuary, it is natural that churches would open doors for communities to congregate, get support and solace, and reduce social isolation at times of need.
She also commented on the war of communications and the value of having trusted sources of reporting and journalism. I pay tribute to the journalists who work day in, day out to bring us accurate information, often putting their own lives at risk.
Karen Adam eloquently reminded us of the experiences of the people who remain in Ukraine and their humanitarian efforts for their neighbours in the middle of war zones.
Nicola Sturgeon reminded us of her welcome and very respected part in the supersponsor scheme. I emphasise the cabinet secretary’s comments on the reopening of the scheme, which remains under review. We carried out the latest review in July 2024, and we keep that open. There are seven criteria to make sure that, if we reopen the scheme, it is safe and deliverable.
I was glad to hear the stories of positive impacts that people from Ukraine have had on communities across Scotland. We have also heard of the challenges that are faced regarding qualifications and recognition of skills. I was reminded of, and will share a story about, a recent visit to a community centre in Ardrishaig, known locally as the egg shed, where I had the opportunity to meet a truly impressive lady from Ukraine. Like so many, her career was disrupted when she fled the war. In her case, she was a qualified teacher—but there is no bias there. However, once settled in Scotland, she was able to eventually continue her career, first working as a classroom assistant in a local school, before becoming a fully registered qualified teacher with the General Teaching Council for Scotland. She is now making a real impact in her community by not only helping inquisitive young Scottish minds but supporting the 12 Ukrainian children in that local school.
It is heartening to hear how those who have fled from Ukraine as a result of war are helping to shape our community and our workplaces. Their contribution to our economy, our cultural heritage and our communities supports Scotland as an inclusive, innovative and welcoming nation.
Ben Macpherson noted the forthcoming remembrance day. In a few days, on 1 October, the people of Ukraine will face a solemn day known as defenders day. It is a national day of remembrance for those members of the Ukrainian armed forces who have fallen, as well as a celebration of their veterans. I am honoured to share that I have been invited to take part in the defenders day service this Sunday, representing the Scottish Government, alongside members of the Ukrainian community at Glasgow cathedral.
I remind everybody that it is always a privilege to join our new Scots to not just share in moments of cultural and historic significance and take part in celebrations, but support one another through moments of remembrance and reflection. It feels pertinent that, ahead of a weekend when Ukraine reflects on those who have been lost and the great many sacrifices that have been made in the name of democracy, today, the Scottish Parliament stands together and says with one voice, “We stand with Ukraine and we stand with all those who need us.” [Applause.]
Thank you. That concludes the debate on Scotland stands with Ukraine.
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