Plenary, 26 Jan 2006

Meeting date: Thursday, January 26, 2006

Official Report 726KB pdf

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Thistle Travel Card Scheme

The final item of business today is a members' business debate on motion S2M-3553, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on the thistle travel card scheme. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament congratulates Enable, together with a consortium of Scottish charities including Down's Syndrome Scotland and Alzheimer Scotland, for its work to introduce the Thistle Travel Card; welcomes the support of the Scottish Executive and transport companies for the implementation of the scheme, including in Dumbarton, Vale of Leven and Helensburgh; acknowledges that many people with learning or physical disabilities, as well as those with dementia and epilepsy, may experience some difficulty in using public transport; considers that the Thistle Travel Card provides them with additional assistance by alerting travel staff to their particular needs; notes that awareness of the scheme is limited, and considers that the Scottish Executive and transport companies should actively promote awareness and uptake of the Thistle Travel Card.

I welcome this opportunity to raise awareness of the thistle travel card scheme. Before I do so, I welcome to Parliament representatives from Enable Scotland, which led the development of the card. Equally, I welcome Joan Mulroy from the Dumbarton advocacy group, members of which—members who have learning disabilities—first raised the issue with me at constituency level. Last, but by no means least, I welcome John Feehan, who is a member of Enable's advisory committee. As well as having shaped the thistle travel card scheme, he continues to play a valuable role on the Mobility and Access Committee for Scotland.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I also acknowledge your keen interest in the issue. I remind members that Trish Godman is a member of the cross-party group on learning disability. Unusually, she will be silent on the issue tonight because she is presiding over the meeting, but on other occasions she is vocal in her support of people who have learning disabilities. That is equally true of many colleagues who could not stay for the debate, but who have asked me to mention their commitment and said that they will be happy to raise awareness of the scheme locally. Those members include Margaret Jamieson, Cathie Craigie, Janis Hughes, Susan Deacon, Johann Lamont and many more.

I will give some background information on how the thistle travel card scheme came about, how it has progressed and what I want the Executive to do next. The beauty of the thistle travel card lies in its simplicity. It is free, it is easy to use and it is designed to help people who might face difficulties in using public transport. It tells the bus driver, the ticket collector and other transport staff that the card-holder might need just a little bit of extra help, perhaps because they have a disability or an illness or perhaps just because of age, which will affect us all. The things that people most often need help with are knowing which bus to get on and where to get off, counting out the right fare, understanding timetables and understanding travel announcements—which can be a challenge to us all.

The thistle travel card scheme started in 1997, when Enable's advisory committee established that people who have learning disabilities were having problems accessing public transport without the assistance of a friend or carer. The committee launched a pilot transport project to examine the problem and come up with imaginative solutions. In the first phase of the project, a survey was carried out among people who have learning disabilities throughout Scotland. The overwhelming evidence was that the problems relate mainly to communication.

The second phase involved the trial of a system to alert transport operators to individuals' needs and to provide information on how to deal with those needs. Support was secured from two of the major bus companies in Scotland, which operated a pilot scheme. The scheme was operated by FirstBus in West Lothian and by Stagecoach Western in Ayr and Kilmarnock. Not surprisingly, they found that the scheme had the potential to make a considerable impact on the confidence and freedom of a large number of people. The scheme gained the support of the bus drivers and staff at FirstBus and Stagecoach, who welcomed the initiative because it helped them to offer an enhanced customer service. The scheme got the thumbs-up all round.

It was recognised that the thistle travel card had potential not only for people who have learning disabilities but for others. A number of organisations thought likewise—among others the Carers National Association, Down's Syndrome Scotland and Capability Scotland. I am pleased to say that the idea was supported by the Executive and the thistle travel card scheme was launched in September 2002 by the then Deputy Minister for Enterprise, Transport and Lifelong Learning, Lewis Macdonald. Some 200,000 cards were distributed throughout Scotland and 8,000 copies of the staff guidelines were supplied to 42 transport providers.

In March 2004, a reprint of 80,000 cards and thistle logo stickers was needed to help to promote the scheme. Local authorities have helped to distribute the card widely. It has been targeted at health centres, day centres, sheltered employment projects and travel offices. Information and guidance packs were issued to all transport staff who are responsible for customer care and who are in daily contact with the public so that they would know what difficulties might arise and about the easy ways in which those difficulties can be overcome. The scheme is practical and low maintenance and—surprise, surprise—it works. What more can we ask for? I will tell the minister what I would like the Executive to do.

First, I would like the Executive to work with, and actively to encourage, transport providers to provide training to their staff on the thistle travel card. We know that there are problems relating to transport staff not recognising the card. Information was originally sent to train companies, but it has never really been taken up by them, so the focus has been mainly on bus services. The scheme's success relies heavily on the support of transport providers, some of which have been supportive and have told us that they have embraced the scheme, but there are still frequent reports of bus drivers' not knowing what the card is when a person shows one to them. That is a general problem rather than a problem with any particular bus company. We acknowledge that transport providers face complex issues in training their staff, but I know that Enable and other organisations would be willing to work alongside them to address the problem. The issue is partly a training and marketing issue, but resources—which would have to come from the Executive—are needed.

Secondly, the Executive must ensure that the scheme is extended and is truly comprehensive. At the very least, trains must be covered but, ideally, taxis should also be covered.

Thirdly, we must evaluate the scheme. There was a proposal to evaluate it in 2002 at a minor cost of £19,000, but no funding has been secured for that. Evaluation would help us to identify the barriers that transport providers face in implementing the scheme and how we can work to overcome them. It would also help us to find out exactly how people are using the card and to find out about the help that they need in order that they can use public transport. The minister believes in evidence-based policy making; I therefore wonder whether the Executive would agree to fund such an evaluation.

Finally, if the scheme works—as it clearly does—will the Executive raise awareness of it and help to promote it much more widely?

The thistle travel card has undoubtedly been successful among transport users, who have said that they feel more confident about making independent journeys. Even if people do not use the card, knowing that they can use it if they need to gives them confidence. The scheme's simplicity—which requires merely that the holder show the card—has been popular. The card is easy to use and to carry. The widening of the scheme to include a variety of groups means that it works for people with a wide range of needs—people with learning disabilities, elderly travellers, people with memory difficulties and people with physical disabilities.

Transport providers also like the scheme and some of them have included information about the travel card in their staff induction and disability awareness training. Thistle logo stickers are displayed on FirstBus vehicles—FirstBus likes the scheme's simplicity and its help in providing an improved service.

In conclusion, I urge the minister to support the thistle travel card, which will encourage greater use of public transport and give greater independence to a range of people for whom travel might occasionally prove to be a little difficult, and I hope that he will signal the Executive's commitment to maximising its potential.

I warmly congratulate Jackie Baillie on securing the debate. I also congratulate—as she does in her motion—Enable and a consortium of other charities in Scotland, including Down's Syndrome Scotland and Alzheimer Scotland, on the work that has been carried out to introduce the thistle travel card scheme.

That work has been completed in a relatively short time. According to the information that I have, approximately 280,000 thistle travel cards have been distributed. That figure shows how successful the scheme has become, but I cannot help but note that although the figure is substantial, it must represent a fairly small fraction of the total number of people who may wish to have, and would benefit from, a thistle travel card to help them to get about and perhaps to have more confidence about getting on public transport and enjoying the liberties and benefits that access to public transport can bring.

There is not much point in repeating what Jackie Baillie said, although I would underscore the points that she made. I will make some supplementary points. First, there is a lack of awareness in rural communities of schemes such as the thistle travel card scheme. I hope that all reasonable and sensible steps can be taken by the minister to help that scheme to be further promoted in rural areas.

Secondly, there is a lack of access to public transport in rural areas and that is a serious problem. My third and principal point concerns how the thistle travel card scheme will interrelate with the national concessionary travel scheme and, in particular, with the smart-card technology that is intended to be used when the national scheme is introduced on 1 April this year.

Ideally, the scheme should combine the smart card with the thistle card. It seems to be logical that the smart card should have the thistle card logo on it as well as the data capture that is contained in the smart card. Otherwise, people who have disabilities and who will qualify under the national concessionary scheme will have to produce two cards—a smart card and the thistle card.

I know from the material that I obtained from the Scottish Executive under the Freedom of Information Act 2000—I know that the minister will not mind my saying this—that the Executive was a bit slow in getting off the mark to deal with the practical nitty-gritty problems that arise. Although the announcement that there was to be a national concessionary travel scheme was made in December 2004, it was not until 24 March 2005 that Debbie Sheldon, the project manager of the scheme, asked local authorities for details of the up-to-date scheme. It is odd that the Executive did not have, for example, details of the local authorities' current disabled eligibility criteria when the national concessionary travel scheme details were announced.

The task of producing smart cards for 1.2 million pensioners and hundreds of thousands of people who have disabilities—whether it is a learning, mental or physical disability—is massive. There are concerns that that task will not be completed to its optimum level by 1 April.

I hope that the minister agrees that it would be desirable to have one card and I would be grateful if he would address that point in his closing remarks, if possible.

The debate will help to promote awareness of the scheme. Perhaps that, more than anything else, is the important benefit that Jackie Baillie has secured for all those who could benefit from the scheme in the future. I congratulate her on introducing the debate.

I am extremely jealous of the thistle card travel scheme. It has worked as democracy should work but usually does not. The people at the sharp end have worked out what was wanted and spoken to other people who helped them. They have evolved and put in place a good system to which the Executive has responded.

It might be a defect of mine, but when I operate in a similar manner, I tend to meet a brick wall or a sponge or something, and I do not get anything done. Jackie Baillie obviously has secrets to teach me. This is a good example of how we should be doing things.

I am not sure about Fergus Ewing's single card proposal, because some people need the thistle card and others will qualify for the concessionary card. I am sure that the minister has given thought to how the thistle card scheme will integrate with the national concessionary travel card. Perhaps there has been progress on this front of which I am not aware, but although the thistle card is meant to enable people to go on the buses with confidence and to get the help they want, some people need more help. I hope that whatever concessionary systems we use will cover carers or helpers to enable those with more serious difficulties to travel.

To be strictly personal, I was hoping that I could get a card that I could give to my motor car, because it is programmed to go on certain routes. I sometimes find that I am driving along one of them when I am supposed to be going somewhere else and I have to say to the car, "Come on, this is wrong." If I had a thistle card, I could give it to the car and it would know to ask me whether I really wanted to go to A rather than to B, so I hope I can get hold of one.

I hope that the thistle travel card scheme can be extended to trains. If we get some of those famous trams, it might even extend to them. The idea behind the scheme is excellent. It would be helpful to implement the points that Jackie Baillie made and those that are made in the briefing paper from Enable, especially those on evaluation. We do not evaluate enough. We have excellent schemes, but nobody ever discovers whether they deliver what they are meant to deliver. Studying the scheme to find out how it delivers would help the minister to evolve similar schemes knowing what worked and what did not work.

Today is a good news day, and I hope that we can do even better in future.

Like others, I congratulate Jackie Baillie on securing this debate. Fergus Ewing referred to awareness raising. I must admit that I, like others, was wholly unaware of the thistle travel card scheme. The more I read of the scheme, the more I realise what a wonderful idea it is. As Donald Gorrie said, it is a model of how national and local government can best work with the voluntary and private sectors in delivering real, practical and effective assistance to those with special needs or disabilities.

The scheme's great strength is that it is a partnership administered by local authorities and the voluntary sector, which, in turn, engage with private transport operators that deliver the service. It is then backed up with financial support from central Government. That the voluntary sector has a lead role is particularly important.

Enable, the initial recipient of the start-up grant from the Executive, is the largest voluntary sector organisation that works specifically with people who have learning difficulties. It understands exactly what is meant by social exclusion. Bodies such as Enable are well placed to take the lead in projects such as the thistle travel card scheme, as they offer uniquely tailored solutions to problems in ways that cannot be replicated by Government bodies.

That is not to say that the role of the Government is unimportant. On the contrary, the enthusiastic backing that the scheme has received from the Executive has been crucial to its success. Although I am accustomed to opposing most of the Executive's proposals, I welcome its commitment to the travel card scheme.

Many voluntary bodies carry out sterling work in their communities, but their activities can be suddenly curtailed because central or local government support is cut off after three years, much to the detriment of the communities they serve. I congratulate the Executive on awarding the initial £50,000 start-up grant to Enable in 2001. Along with Jackie Baillie and others, I urge the minister to ensure on-going and long-term support for such projects.

The scheme's success lies in its practical solution to a real and specific need: the difficulties that people with disabilities may face in utilising basic public transport services that most of us take for granted. The travel card works well because it can easily be identified by transport staff, who can then offer additional assistance without fear of causing offence or embarrassment to the passenger concerned.

In light of the undoubted success of the thistle card, I hope that more projects will be administered this way, with proven and experienced voluntary bodies delivering specific schemes. The thistle card is a tribute to the ability of Enable and the other charities and I therefore trust that the scheme will pave the way for an ever-expanding role for the voluntary sector in delivering simple, focused and effective solutions that make a huge difference to people's lives.

As Fergus Ewing said, I hope that the scheme will be evaluated—if lessons have to be learned, they should be—and, after the evaluation, made available throughout Scotland, particularly in the Highlands and Islands, where public transport is crucial.

I join others in congratulating Jackie Baillie on securing the debate. I am also very grateful for the briefing from Enable. I found it particularly helpful and informative. It was also quite embarrassing, because it told me that West Lothian was one of the pilot areas for the scheme, and I did not know that. My constituency is part of West Lothian, so I have learnt something from taking part in the debate.

Having heard about the scheme, I decided to investigate whether I was alone in my embarrassment or whether others shared it, so I spoke to a few local people. First, I spoke to a local councillor. As we all know, councillors are very knowledgeable and know a lot about everything. Unfortunately, this councillor—who is in that group—did not know a great deal about the scheme either. However, he was redeemed by his council official who knew the scheme very well and was very supportive of it. He told me that, since the pilot scheme and the 2002 launch, the number of applications has reduced significantly, and he thought that that was quite worrying. That lends support to Jackie Baillie's suggestion that we need to republicise the scheme. He suggested that we should look at relaunching the scheme in some way, perhaps alongside the introduction of free bus passes in April.

Yesterday, I met Gordon Dewar from First Scotrail about a local issue. However, I thought I would take the opportunity to question him about his knowledge of the thistle travel card scheme. He was, to his credit, very aware of it from his time at FirstBus, but he also recognised that people had become less aware of it than they were in the past. He also took the opportunity to remind me that First Scotrail has appointed someone to look at access and disability issues. One of their first roles could be to promote the thistle travel card scheme across the rail network. He welcomed the promotion of the thistle travel card scheme on the railways. That would be a further enhancement if it could be done.

We all recognise how access to public transport can provide access to work or training, to services such as the doctor or the dentist, or to social interaction. If someone has a disability, use of public transport can be particularly challenging. A scheme such as the thistle travel card scheme, which discreetly enables people to alert transport staff to their special needs, is to be welcomed.

I also believe that the scheme benefits transport staff. They work in pressured circumstances. Many customers and passengers ask for assistance, or have to be channelled through buses or trains. Anything that helps the staff to understand an individual's needs will allow them to do their job more effectively, which they will welcome. The scheme is in everybody's interests.

It would be helpful, as Jackie Baillie, Enable and others have suggested, to evaluate the scheme so far. If we find, as I am confident we will, that the scheme is of extremely high value, and if we are able to iron out any glitches that have arisen over the past few years, we should relaunch the scheme and shout to the world that it is available. I agree with Fergus Ewing that there must be many other people who would benefit from taking up the scheme, and I hope that, in his response, the minister will encourage us to promote the scheme in future.

I congratulate Jackie Baillie on securing this evening's important debate. I also welcome representatives from Enable and other providers. I know from experience that Enable and other voluntary organisations are always in the forefront of any scheme that will help people with disabilities, as well as those with none.

I must admit that, were it not for my role as SNP spokesperson on equal opportunities and disability issues, I would not have heard of the thistle scheme either. It is only through my work in this area over the past three or four years that I have discovered the thistle scheme. As other members have said, awareness has decreased rather than increased.

When he first announced the thistle card scheme in 2002, Lewis Macdonald said that it would make a huge difference to the thousands of people who are disabled and may not have the confidence to use public transport. We welcomed with open arms the scheme and the £50,000 the Executive gave to it, but awareness of the scheme, among users and providers, has waned since then. As Fergus Ewing said, simply holding today's debate will raise awareness of the scheme, and I am grateful for that.

I worry that, although the scheme was successful at first, it seems to be waning. Providers and users must come together and produce some figures. As Jackie Baillie said, evaluation is important. The scheme must be evaluated, not just from the users' point of view but from the providers' point of view. We need to know how many providers are still aware of the scheme, so that it can be rolled out to all transport systems in Scotland to give people with disabilities, or elderly people who are unsure and perhaps not so confident about using public transport, a bit of the equality and fairness that we take for granted. Evaluation is certainly important, as is awareness, and that theme has been raised umpteen times by everyone who has contributed to the debate.

Perhaps we could raise awareness using posters, or even a radio or television campaign.

And on buses.

We need more advertising on buses too, as Fergus Ewing says. Perhaps there can be advertisements on buses, on the underground and on trains. We need a rolling programme of awareness-raising measures. Perhaps a questionnaire could also be sent out to voluntary groups and to transport providers, asking how aware they are of the scheme. We have all seen advertisements for various schemes that have Executive backing, and they are very successful, so I think that we should consider having another pilot scheme to raise awareness for the thistle scheme.

I know that the thistle card is helpful and I have spoken to a number of people in Enable and in Capability Scotland who had high hopes for the scheme when it was rolled out in 2002. I think that there is still hope for it yet, but the providers must be aware of it, not just so that they can provide the scheme and advertise it but so that they can train their staff. Unfortunately, as Jackie Baillie said, elderly people and people with disabilities or learning disabilities who are asking about the fare on the bus do not always get the treatment we would expect them to get.

Training must also be part of the evaluation and awareness-raising process. I hope that the minister and the Executive will take that on board and actively promote an awareness training day or an advertising appeal to let people know that the thistle scheme exists and that it works well. We need more people to be aware of the scheme and to use it.

We have heard a lot of good ideas, so my contribution will be extremely brief. First, I congratulate Jackie Baillie on bringing the motion to the chamber. As Fergus Ewing said, it will raise awareness of the scheme, which is a good thing.

Sandra White made important points about training, what will be needed in the future and how to take the scheme further and roll it out. Good points were also made about voluntary organisations. Donald Gorrie made a point about carers. When we debate the needs of people who require carers, the needs of the carers should, where appropriate, always be considered.

The scheme is exciting and will definitely be life changing for all the people who are able to take advantage of it. I congratulate Jackie Baillie on securing the debate and I look forward to what I hope will be a positive response from the minister.

Parliament sometimes affords publicity to issues that need it; at times it affords publicity to issues that arguably do not need it. This debate is certainly a good example of our ability—in particular, Jackie Baillie's ability—to use Parliament to bring an important issue to the chamber and, I suspect, to a wider audience. I thank her for giving us that opportunity and congratulate her on her motion on the thistle travel card scheme. I will respond on behalf of the Government.

I warmly welcome the thistle travel card scheme. Like other members, I congratulate Enable and the range of partners that have been mentioned in the debate on the work that they have done in introducing the card. Transport operators are embracing the use of the thistle travel card. I pay tribute to them and in particular to bus companies for their continued support of the scheme. I encourage transport operators of all types—including rail operators, as Mary Mulligan rightly said—to work harder to participate in a scheme that is making a difference to the lives of many people across Scotland. More could be done.

It is encouraging to see disabled people taking a more active role in society and enjoying a fuller and more independent life in their community. We remain committed to ensuring that transport is accessible to disabled people, although I recognise that that is not always the case. Progress has been made, but the purpose of a debate such as this is to take the matter forward.

The thistle travel card is an excellent example of how support can be given to older and disabled people to make their travel experience easier. That must be at the core of our proposals. By the summer we will have, for the first time, a national transport strategy for Scotland. The strategy will provide a long-term framework for all Scottish transport developments in all modes of transport. It will build on the transport white paper "Scotland's transport future" by showing how transport can contribute to our five key objectives.

One of those objectives is to promote social inclusion by connecting remote and disadvantaged communities and increasing the accessibility of the transport network. Members have mentioned different aspects of the objective: Mary Scanlon and Fergus Ewing mentioned the rural aspect. Others have discussed different perspectives on the objective. The important point is that in the consultation on the national transport strategy, which I hope to publish shortly, there will be further opportunities to make such arguments.

My officials plan future consultation with transport users, including older and disabled people, once the consultative draft of the strategy has been published. I would welcome any other ideas that members have about how we can promote the particular issues that have been raised in the debate.

The debate is timely as we move towards the introduction on 1 April of the Scotland-wide free bus travel scheme for older and disabled people. The thistle travel card scheme gives disabled and older people who need special help as they get on and off a bus the comfort that the driver will recognise that they need help. I therefore very much encourage the use of the thistle card and encourage people to obtain one if they feel that it will be of benefit to them.

I will give further thought to the comments on the national travel concessionary card, although Donald Gorrie made a fair point about the separate issues that arise. It is important to recognise that there is guidance in the concessionary scheme that covers disability access in particular. Many people who travel with concessionary cards will have a thistle card, but we need to do more to ensure the safety of the older and disabled people who travel under the new scheme. Drivers have a duty to take steps to ensure the safety of all passengers.

In the run-up to the launch of the Scotland-wide concessionary scheme, we will issue guidance for bus drivers that insists that they look after the well-being of people who travel under that scheme.

We strongly supported the introduction of the thistle travel card scheme and will continue to support it. I will do my best to respond to the three challenges that Jackie Baillie set us—she always has a few challenges for us. Like other members, I welcome the briefing paper that Enable provided to members and I strongly support its three key priorities, on which Jackie Baillie asked for action.

I confirm that we will work with Enable and its partners to evaluate the scheme's impact and that we will fund that evaluation, which will be used to refine the scheme. We will also support the publication of revised material for the thistle travel card scheme, to promote awareness of it among travellers and transport operators. I am happy to play any role that I can in doing what we can to ensure the scheme's continued success in the years to come.

Meeting closed at 17:46.