The final item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-11415, in the name of Emma Harper, on the role of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. I invite members who wish to participate in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons now or as soon as possible.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament welcomes what it sees as the contribution of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly (BIPA) to enhancing government scrutiny, and in bringing together members of UK and Irish legislatures to discuss, debate and report on a wide range of policy areas facing society across all of the BIPA constituent areas, namely Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Northern Ireland, England, Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man; understands that BIPA, established in 1990, has a core mission to promote co-operation between political representatives in Britain and Ireland for the benefit of the people who elect its members from all of the legislatures represented, while building on the close relationships established in recent years between politicians throughout Britain and Ireland; further understands that BIPA members engage in a wide range of non-legislative parliamentary activities through biannual plenary meetings and ongoing committee work, and that it consists of five committees, which are Committee A (Sovereign Matters), Committee B (European Affairs), Committee C (Economic), Committee D (Environmental and Social), and a Steering Committee, which brings together and links the work of the various BIPA committees; notes that BIPA plenaries alternate between the BIPA regions and serve to debate topical issues and committee reports, and include a question period with a senior minister from the host country; understands that there are many reports that BIPA has produced for consideration by UK and Irish legislatures, including recommendations on small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs), renewable energy, the transfer of prisoners, cross-border policing, the Good Friday Agreement, healthcare access and post-Brexit trade; believes that BIPA plays an important role in listening to evidence from individuals, business and wider society, including from the South Scotland region, to help inform government policy and foster relationships with elected members across the BIPA legislatures; wishes BIPA a long and successful future, and encourages everyone to look at the considered reports that are available on the BIPA website, britishirish.org.
17:05
I welcome the opportunity to lead an important members’ business debate that focuses on the role of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. The Assembly enhances the scrutiny of each legislature’s policy making and decision making, and—as I mentioned in a debate in the chamber last week—it fosters positive intergovernmental relationships. I thank all the members on all sides of the chamber who have supported my motion. I welcome the fact that there was cross-party support for it, and that there is consensus on the positive role of BIPA.
I thank the BIPA clerks for the amazing work that they do, and I thank Jennie Chinembiri—I hope that I got that right; I have to say it really slowly—and Steven Bell from the Parliament’s international relations office. They are absolutely amazing—they support us MSPs and co-ordinate our visits, and Steven Bell provided us with an excellent briefing ahead of tonight’s debate. The current BIPA chairs, Brendan Smith TD and Karen Bradley MP, are excellent, and they guide us through our business and events at all the plenary sessions.
BIPA was originally established in 1990, as the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body, to create a link between the Houses of Parliament and the Houses of the Oireachtas. The first plenary session took place in London in 1990, and in 2001, the membership was enlarged to include the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the legislature of the Isle of Man and the States of Guernsey and Jersey.
The name “British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly” was adopted in 2008 to reflect the new era of relations between Britain and Ireland. BIPA’s mission is to promote co-operation between elected representatives across the UK and Ireland and BIPA members, which benefits the people whom we all represent.
BIPA wants to build on the close relationships that have been established in recent years between politicians throughout Britain and Ireland. BIPA members engage in a wide range of non-legislative parliamentary activities, through biannual plenary meetings and on-going committee work. The venue for plenaries alternates among BIPA countries. The sessions involve debating topical issues and committee reports and include a question period with a senior minister from the host country. I was fortunate to meet Micheál Martin, when he was the Taoiseach, at one of our Dublin sessions.
The four current BIPA committees are the Steering Committee, the European Affairs Committee, the Economic Committee and the Environment and Social Committee. They meet regularly, both online and in person, and take oral and written evidence on specific issues. At the sessions, BIPA members sit in alphabetical order rather than as delegations of their respective legislatures, and national representation is relevant only for the purposes of the quorum and the tabling of certain motions and amendments. It seems to me that sitting next to a colleague from a different party, even an Opposition party, actually enhances our interparliamentary relationships.
The Parliaments, regional Assemblies and devolved institutions that are represented all share a common tradition and style of debate, and those common roots are reflected in the way in which the Assembly operates. On 6 March 2023, members held an extraordinary plenary meeting in Belfast, at Stormont, to mark the 25th anniversary of the signing of the Good Friday agreement. The Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly at Stormont granted the use of its chamber and meeting rooms for that special plenary. The former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, and Sir John Holmes, who was principal private secretary to Tony Blair when he was Prime Minister, were directly involved in the Good Friday agreement negotiations. They addressed the Assembly on the significance of the historic peace agreement and responded to questions.
Former members of the Northern Ireland Women’s Coalition—Kate Fearon, Bronagh Hinds, Dr Avila Kilmurray and Jane Morrice—followed up with a presentation in which they conveyed the significance of having women involved in creating the peace process and promoting lasting peace.
Attending the session on 6 March was extremely impactful for everyone. When I was growing up in Stranraer in the late 1970s, I was all too aware of the troubles, which were happening just across the water—across the Irish Sea. In my view, not enough is said about the role that women play in peace negotiations in any conflict, including what was happening in Ireland and Northern Ireland at that time. That relates to my previous work in promoting United Nations resolution 1325, which aims to promote the importance of women being at the forefront of peace talks.
In addition to specific debates and motions, recommendations are made to lawmakers across the areas that are represented in BIPA. In May, we had a plenary in Jersey, where we heard from Jersey’s first woman Chief Minister, Kristina Moore. She took questions from me regarding whether Jersey is considering the wellbeing economy as part of its financial policy, and she agreed that wellbeing, and not just gross domestic product, should be considered.
For me and my BIPA colleagues, excellent relationships have been created. Senator Emer Currie and Mairéad Farrell TD both subsequently invited me to visit Leinster house, which I did last summer. I was able to attend Taoiseach Leo Varadkar’s leader’s questions, and I found the whole visit to be extremely welcoming and enjoyable.
The plenary sessions allow us to share experiences. We have heard, for example, that Ireland has challenges that are similar to Scotland’s with regard to general practitioner recruitment in rural areas, and I was able to provide an insight into how the unique ScotGEM—Scottish graduate entry medicine—programme that was created by the Scottish Government has helped to increase the GP workforce in rural areas in Scotland. Ireland will perhaps be able to take that forward, reflecting on the work that the Scottish Government has done in promoting ScotGEM.
The BIPA Economic Committee, of which I am a member, is currently carrying out an energy inquiry, which has shown how energy policy differs in each of the legislatures. It is becoming increasingly apparent from that inquiry that energy policy in the UK is having a disproportionately negative impact on Scotland.
This is a good place for me to stop, as I am conscious of the time. In closing, I again welcome the opportunity to lead the debate. I am not asking the Government to do anything, which is probably a first for me. BIPA has really benefited me, as it has allowed me to build intra-parliamentary relationships, to meet and learn from other members, and to act on good policy to enhance the lives of the people whom we represent. I look forward to hearing contributions from other members.
17:12
The work of MSPs is wide ranging. The press often picks up on our adversarial politics, but the work that we do to build relationships, find consensus and increase understanding together is often overlooked. That is why I am grateful to Emma Harper for providing MSPs with the parliamentary time in which to discuss our involvement with the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. The most recent BIPA debate in the Scottish Parliament took place in 2012, so another one is long overdue, and I thank Emma Harper for highlighting the Assembly’s work.
As a newly elected MSP in 2021, I jumped at the chance to participate in a different type of parliamentary engagement. As Emma Harper pointed out, last year BIPA provided a valued forum for parliamentarians to discuss and develop dialogue on issues in the north of Ireland. In particular, it offered an unrivalled opportunity to learn about the peace process and the courage and humanity that have been required to maintain it.
I was fascinated to hear about the real change makers: those who really made a difference in the Good Friday agreement, such as John Hume, Mo Mowlam, President Bill Clinton and Bertie Ahern. As Emma Harper pointed out, we met the Women’s Coalition—the women who really were at the tipping point of change—which was a tremendous privilege for us.
With cross-party participation from across the British isles, BIPA has provided a wider arena for discussion and co-operation. I have particularly enjoyed meeting people and finding out what matters to them. I have learned so much about the power of talking, sharing a meal and debating calmly, with gentleness and humility, topical issues of mutual concern. The importance of that should not be underestimated.
Emma Harper touched on the structure of BIPA. Much of the day-to-day work is carried out in the four cross-party committees, which meet regularly.
You might come on to this, as you are—I mean, the member is—a member of the BIPA committee that deals with culture, which has just completed a report on indigenous languages, including Scots languages. That is really important for me. I welcome that and I would be interested in your comments on it.
Speak through the chair, please.
If it is allowed, Presiding Officer, I say to Emma Harper, “Thank you, ma bonnie quine.” The report, which was published in May 2023, was tremendously rich and focused on indigenous languages, as Emma Harper said. My love of language started at university, when I did a special project on Scots and Scottish languages, so I was delighted to work on the topic. Professors of Doric and professors from all over Scotland contributed to that debate. It was tremendously rich. As we know, language can sometimes be co-opted for the wrong reasons but, as the report concluded,
“BIPA is well-placed to continue to monitor the health of indigenous minority languages”.
Therein lies the beauty of BIPA. It transcends the political and finds common purpose among those with opposing views. It is a rich environment for learning and it allows legislators to build bridges—it is important that we do that rather than exist in our silos. I therefore look forward to my continued participation and to my committee’s next meeting in February, and I deeply thank those who support the work of BIPA across the British Isles—including our clerks, who support us so well.
17:16
It is a great pleasure to have been called to speak in the members’ debate on the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, and I congratulate my colleague Emma Harper on securing it. At the outset, I, too, put on the record my thanks to our Parliament’s fantastic international relations office team, the excellent BIPA clerks and all the staff who ensure that our work continues apace and effectively.
It is an honour for me to speak in the debate in my capacity as Deputy Presiding Officer, which I do not tend to do very often—as you will know, Presiding Officer. In that role, I head up the Scottish Parliament delegation to the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. I am pleased to see that, in addition to Emma Harper and Tess White, other members of the delegation—Ross Greer and Pauline McNeill—are in the chamber, and I know that they will be keen to make their own contributions. I note, too, that an associate member of our delegation, Paul O’Kane, also seeks to participate in the debate, along with—very appropriately—the convener of the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee, Clare Adamson.
The forerunner to the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly was the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body, which met for the first time in London in 1990. For the record, I commend the involvement of my late sister-in-law, Margaret Ewing MP MSP, who participated in that forum. In the context of what was going on on the island of Ireland, the early work that was done at that time was very significant, and it was important to her because she placed a great deal of importance on interparliamentary co-operation.
The modern-day British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly has developed further to the Good Friday Belfast agreement and the subsequent positive developments on the island of Ireland that we have witnessed over the years. At its heart, of course, BIPA provides an important opportunity for dialogue with politicians from across these isles on issues anent the island of Ireland, which remain very much on the political agenda.
The Assembly also covers much wider issues of common interest to people across these isles. That can be seen in recent BIPA plenaries, at which there has been a focus on, for example, energy policy, post-Brexit trade, minority languages and cross-border co-operation. The next plenary, which is due to be held in Ireland in the spring, will focus on tourism, which is a very important part of the economies of all constituent members of the Assembly.
As has been mentioned, the subject matter committees do a power of work in taking evidence and drawing up reports. I note that Committee D, being the Environment and Social Committee, which is chaired by Lord Dubs, will be holding its next meeting at the Scottish Parliament on 19 February, as it continues its current inquiry into rural housing.
For my part, I sit as head of the Scottish Parliament delegation on the Steering Committee, which meets in advance of and at the start of plenary sessions. It proposes the agenda and considers wider issues, including, most recently, the future development and role of BIPA itself.
A lot of good work is carried out by BIPA, and I firmly believe that this interparliamentary body has an important role to play, not just in promoting co-operation and progress on the island of Ireland but in ensuring that politicians from across the political spectrum can meet and discuss the relevant challenges and opportunities of the day. Such dialogue also takes place at sidebar meetings, which are all the more important, given the impact of Brexit on the frequency of United Kingdom-Irish discussions, which have gone from near-daily informal interactions in Brussels to less frequent, more formal meetings.
The British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly plays an important role in our international discourse. Difficult decisions are facilitated and positions reached that always seek the common ground on what are very sensitive matters.
We will see what happens with political events that are yet to take place, but the plenary session in the autumn is due to take place here in our Parliament. I know that there will be a lot of interest in that meeting, and I feel confident that a very warm welcome will be extended to our guests.
17:22
I am very pleased to speak in Emma Harper’s debate, which I think is the first of its kind, highlighting the work of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. I, too, put on the record my thanks for the support of the team at the Parliament’s international relations office. It has been a pleasure to work with Emma Harper, Annabelle Ewing, Tess White, Ross Greer and Jackie Dunbar, who attended the most recent plenary session.
As Labour’s representative on the body, I can say that it is a privilege to take part. I joined as an associate member after the 2016 Brexit vote, and I attended my first meeting in Kilkenny in the province of Leinster, in the south-east of Ireland. Brexit was not on the agenda, which mystified me, but it became clear that we could not stop the politics taking over the agenda. I remember the intense atmosphere in the room and I was captivated by the politics that ensued between the parties of Northern Ireland and Ireland on the impact of the Brexit agreement. I honestly felt that I would like more members to have an insight into that, as it was unique to be able to listen at that time. To me, it was almost as if the forum provided a platform to those parties, and indeed a buffer for the parties of Northern Ireland to debate the acute consequences of such a vote and the on-going suspension of the Stormont Assembly. That is how I feel when I attend BIPA: I see the politics being played out.
As Annabelle Ewing said, BIPA was established in 1990 as the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body, and it soon became the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. Its origins are in the Good Friday agreement. If I did not know that it was a consequence of the Good Friday agreement, I would be constantly reminded of it—as is everyone else—by John D Taylor, Lord Kilclooney, who was Lord Trimble’s deputy and a key member of the peace talks, and who is still a member of BIPA. I do not agree with him on a great deal, but I do agree with him on two points, the first being that BIPA could play a much stronger role across the legislatures of the United Kingdom and Ireland. Incidentally, and secondly, he is also a very strong supporter of the Palestinian people.
The British-Irish Council was established in 1999 under strand 3 of the 1998 Good Friday agreement. As members will know, the council brings together ministers from Britain, Ireland and the devolved Administrations. Strand 3 of the agreement stated that, as well as intergovernmental links,
“The elected institutions of the members will be encouraged to develop interparliamentary links, perhaps building on the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body.”
Hence we have BIPA.
As other members have said, it is the committees that make the forum function. I had the privilege of serving on committee D, which Lord Dubs currently chairs. Its inquiry into abortion services took evidence on the impact on the women of Northern Ireland when the Republic voted for some restricted rights on abortion. That inquiry was something that only a body such as BIPA could conduct, because it looked at the interactions of the different Parliaments. Many women from Northern Ireland were already travelling to the UK for abortion, and we got an insight into some of the horrendous conditions that they had to travel in. We looked at what implications the Republic’s vote to allow abortion would have for them travelling south and what the law was on all of that. It was quite fascinating. We had the head of medical services for the Republic giving evidence that we would not otherwise have seen.
BIPA is taken very seriously and it has been addressed by important speakers from the UK and Irish Governments including the Rt Hon Steve Baker, Minister of State for Northern Ireland; Keir Starmer; Jeffrey Donaldson, leader of the Democratic Unionist Party; John Finucane, an MP representing Sinn Féin; the current Taoiseach; and all previous Taoiseachs. They have all addressed this important forum.
We were privileged—I sometimes wish that it had been filmed and minuted—to listen to Bertie Ahern, Senator Mitchell and John Holmes, who was a civil servant at the time, give unique insights into how the Good Friday talks could actually have crumbled. Bertie Ahern spoke of going to his mother’s funeral on one of the days and then going back to the talks. Such a profound act was seen as one that brought some of the people together to make sure of the agreement. He also spoke of the importance of John Major’s contribution, but he said that, without the personality of Tony Blair, he did not believe that it could have happened. It was a historic moment that I and others who were there were privileged to listen to.
I am delighted that we have had a chance to provide some insights to members, but let us do more to make sure that other members can see the work of BIPA as a forum. I thank Emma Harper again for bringing the debate to the chamber.
17:27
I, too, start with some thanks. I thank our Parliament’s current and previous delegates to BIPA. The previous delegates include Margaret Ewing, as Annabelle Ewing mentioned. Our delegates do a tremendous job on our behalf, but sometimes we do not hear about it.
Today, I have an ask not of the Government, but of us in the Parliament. It is that we take away the idea of having on the parliamentary agenda regular updates from BIPA and other representative bodies such as the Conference of European Regional Legislative Assemblies—CALRE—which is the contact group for the European Committee of the Regions. Along with Donald Cameron, who is my depute in the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee, I sit on the interparliamentary forum on behalf of the Parliament. That is a UK body. I am also a delegate to the UK-EU parliamentary partnership assembly, which is the meeting place of Westminster and the Lords with our European colleagues now that we are no longer in the European Union.
It is important that we hear such updates because, as we have heard, good work happens at those forums. I was particularly taken with the mention of the Scots language. I knew that that would be at the heart of what Ms Harper said. One of the first things that BIPA did was to look at the lesser-used languages across the islands, including in the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. Those links know no borders or boundaries, because there is a shared culture between people throughout the United Kingdom and the islands, as well as people from France, who share Celtic and Celtic-language traditions.
I know that the European Union has been doing work on establishing and recognising cultural activity as a really important part of our heritage. We have Up Helly Aa and other traditions across our communities, including the Lanark Lanimers, which is close to my heart. BIPA has such things at its heart and it will continue to look to support and preserve them on our behalf. That is great work.
There is also really important work as Brexit is being managed. My committee has been focusing on the change in relationships within the UK following Brexit, but we also have to recognise that relationships across the water—across the Irish Sea and in Europe—have changed. Such forums are important for keeping links going, having shared understanding and being able to develop policy for the benefit of all our communities.
I know that I am not the only person in the chamber with Irish heritage. We have to remember that protecting the common travel area is at the heart of BIPA. The common travel area has been in existence for a long time—since Irish independence—and it marks our strong and close cultural, community and familial relationships across the Irish Sea. It is really important that BIPA has protecting the common travel area at its heart, along with preserving the Good Friday agreement.
Again, I give a huge thank you to everyone at BIPA. I hope that we will have more opportunities to hear about its work and the work that our colleagues are doing there. Hearing such consensus has been a breath of fresh air this afternoon. We do not see enough of the consensual work that is done across the Parliament to develop policy and make lives better for our communities.
17:31
Like colleagues, I thank Emma Harper very much for giving us the opportunity to discuss the work of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, and I thank our clerks in the international relations office for the support that they have given us.
I have been a member of BIPA for eight years. That is by far one of the greatest privileges that I have had in the job. I discovered my own Irish heritage as a result of being a member of BIPA. I mentioned offhand to my gran one day where I was about to go on a trip, and it was only at that point that she told the rest of us that our family had come from Sligo and Enniskillen. Being a member of BIPA has been a huge privilege for me because I have been able to sit in a room with, get to know and work with people who risked so much to secure peace for the north of Ireland. They risked their lives. People who had been on opposite sides of a war, including former combatants on both sides in that war, now sit in the room together for discussions.
I found that particularly significant because people of my age in Northern Ireland do not remember the conflict. I was born around the time of the loyalist ceasefire in 1994 and the first of the Irish Republican Army’s ceasefires in that period, leading up to the Good Friday agreement. A friend of mine from the north likes to remind people that Northern Ireland is a post-conflict society, not a post-post-conflict society. People are still living in the shadow of what came before. The peace process is exactly that: it is an on-going process. It is a process that we all have a responsibility to contribute to, because it is still really fragile. We have seen that over the past couple of years as risks to it have become apparent once again.
My first BIPA meeting was immediately after the Brexit referendum vote. There was a sense of shock around the room, even among those in it who had voted leave and had not necessarily expected their side to win. Sadly, that revealed a level of ignorance and complacency in Great Britain about Northern Ireland that there simply should not have been. There was a sense that peace had been achieved and that that was something that did not need to be worried about any more, rather than a recognition that Northern Ireland was an equal part of the UK and that peace was a process.
Eight years on, we are still trying to square the circle of the border issues in Northern Ireland. A sea border will never be acceptable to unionists and a land border will never be acceptable to nationalists or compatible with the Good Friday agreement. However, the collapse of the Executive in Northern Ireland is not entirely about that; it is also about a crisis within unionism and specifically the DUP, which campaigned for Brexit and has been unable to reconcile itself with getting what it wanted at the time.
The bigger issue is that young Protestants and unionists—or young people from that background—are not voting for unionist parties in Northern Ireland in the numbers that they used to because of social policy reasons, such as LGBT rights or abortion rights. Young people from the north have spoken to BIPA on a number of occasions about issues such as climate change and education, which they want to talk about with their Assembly and their Assembly members, but they cannot do so. They can talk to the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, but they cannot talk to Stormont because it is not functioning.
If we combine that crisis in unionism with Sinn Féin’s growth in the nationalist electorate, the inevitable result that we get is Sinn Féin coming first in the most recent election. That gets to the nub of why there is not a Northern Ireland Executive at the moment. The situation is not entirely to do with Brexit; it is to do with the fact that one party cannot reconcile itself with the fact that another party won the election. The DUP cannot reconcile itself with the fact that there would be a Sinn Féin First Minister, even though there would be a DUP Deputy First Minister on entirely equal terms.
When we were in Stormont, the Stormont Assembly was not sitting. Does Ross Greer agree that the whole-hearted disappointment of members there about the fact that there was no sign of getting the Assembly restarted was absolutely palpable?
I am grateful to Emma Harper for that intervention. I felt the distress of our Northern Irish colleagues about the fact that some of us in this chamber have spoken in their chamber more than they have, because BIPA was able to use the Stormont chamber but the Northern Ireland Assembly was not sitting. Imagine how galling it would be for us if this Parliament had not sat for years at a time, given the huge amount of work that we do for the people of Scotland, which we do on an entirely consensual cross-party basis. Imagine what it would be like if that had not been happening for years, with budgets not having been set for years. I urge the DUP to recognise that it is losing far more than it is gaining. It needs to re-engage with the Northern Ireland Assembly, and it needs to re-engage with the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, too.
I should make the point that I am speaking specifically about the DUP here; I am not speaking about Northern Irish unionism as a whole. Our Ulster Unionist Party colleagues make a fantastic contribution to the Assembly.
Before I close, I want to briefly urge the UK Government to engage more as well. Our Irish colleagues have repeatedly raised concern about the fact that, although the Irish Government engages comprehensively with the Assembly, the British Government often does not. I give an honourable mention to Steve Baker, Minister of State for Northern Ireland, with whom I agree on almost nothing but who makes a really sincere and heartfelt contribution to BIPA. However, more senior ministers, including secretaries of state and the Prime Minister himself, need to engage with it.
I will finish by echoing the points that others have made about collaboration. My BIPA committee will be in Helsinki and Tallinn soon as part of a security inquiry. Unfortunately, I will not be able to join it. However, that is a fantastic example of the fact that BIPA not only does cross-jurisdiction work here but takes part in engagement with our wider continent.
I would also like to mention some of the individuals whom I have had the privilege of meeting. They include Reg Empey, who is one of those who sacrificed so much for the peace process, and Alf Dubs, with whom I had a profoundly moving conversation, along with Christina McKelvie and Linda Fabiani, about an issue that is not directly related to BIPA—that of assisted dying. A discussion that we had on the fringes of the Assembly in a hotel reception has significantly changed my views on that issue. I am sure that that will be of interest to you, Presiding Officer.
One final individual whom I would like to mention is Steffan Lewis—a Plaid Cymru member of the Assembly who made a huge contribution. He was elected at the same time as me but, sadly, he passed away at the age of 34. Steffan was a really valued colleague and somebody with whom we had the privilege of working during his time on BIPA.
BIPA is essential because it ensures that at least some members of the Parliaments and Assemblies on these islands know and understand one another, and that those of us in Great Britain and the rest of Ireland understand the profound issues that still face the north as it makes its way through the peace process. There is great value in us knowing and understanding one another on a personal level, collaborating on a wide range of issues and building those relationships, and I would very much like to see that continuing.
Thank you for your indulgence, Presiding Officer.
I call Willie Coffey, who joins us online.
17:38
I thank my colleague Emma Harper for bringing the work of BIPA to the attention of the Scottish Parliament and for giving me the opportunity to offer a few reflections of my own.
It was my pleasure to serve on the Assembly from 2011 until 2022, if memory serves me correctly, and what a privilege it was to do that. I recall my then whip, Brian Adam, asking me—or telling me, rather—“You’re interested in Irish politics, aren’t you? How do you fancy serving on BIPA?” That was it, basically. It was a wonderful experience and I am so grateful to Brian Adam for that. He was a lovely man, who is sorely missed.
The first Assembly meeting that I attended was in Brighton in 2011. What an experience it was for me to travel from the Scottish National Party conference in Inverness, where it was absolutely freezing, to Brighton and to see, on arriving there—on more or less the same day—people sunbathing on the beach. That geographical contrast was something that would be repeated in a political sense over the coming years of the Assembly.
In my early days as a member, I initially thought, “What on earth is the point of this?” There was hardly any real debate—just contributions on topics of mutual interest from members, no divisions, no votes on anything and composite motions agreed by everyone. However, that was the point—to foster good relations, and to search for and to get agreement among members who are diametrically opposed to one another in their normal political settings. That is a rare achievement, but thank goodness for it.
I saw members from the unionist and nationalist traditions in Ireland coming together regularly in genuine dialogue, with a very real spirit of friendship and co-operation, which was aided to some degree by the wonderful social side of the Assembly. That success was epitomised for me in a moment in 2012 in Dublin, in Dáil Éireann, when I managed to coax two colleague members, John McAllister MLA and Noel Coonan TD, to pose together under a portrait of Michael Collins, sharing the warmest of handshakes. They had the highest regard for one another, and I saw unionist and nationalist hand in hand. Where else and in what other setting could that possibly have been achieved?
That is what BIPA has achieved and what it must remain all about. Those early days, following its establishment in 1990, were probably clouded with a little bit of suspicion about whether one agenda could outflank another, but the founding members, to their eternal credit, put in place such a powerful arrangement that it succeeded and has endured for the past 34 years.
I have one request, which I will make in the true spirit of BIPA by not being too critical: I respectfully ask that the British Prime Ministers take an interest and attend BIPA. The Irish Prime Ministers, or Taoisigh, have always found the time to attend, and it is greatly appreciated by all the members.
Over the years, I recall standout contributions from Lord Alf Dubs, Lord Bew, Frankie Feighan TD, Patrick O’Donovan TD and, not forgetting, Pat “the Cope” Gallagher. Sometimes, those were contrasting contributions, of course, but they always took us forwards, not backwards.
Very sadly, in preparation for the debate tonight, I learned about the death of a dear friend, Senator Paul Coghlan, who passed away during the summer. He served in BIPA for many years, and was a great support to me, too. Paul Coghlan was what the Assembly is all about: bringing people together across the political divides. His watchword was, “If it can be done, let us do it together.”
On that fitting note, I once again thank Emma Harper for securing a debate on BIPA. I wish the Assembly and all its members every success in the future in continuing to find common ground for the peace, reconciliation and prosperity that we all seek.
I call Paul O’Kane, who is the final speaker in the open debate.
17:42
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am happy to have the opportunity to speak on this important matter.
Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Tá áthas orm deis a bheith agam labhairt ar an ábhar tábhachtach seo.
I felt it appropriate to begin my speech in both English and Irish this evening. I am sure that the official report will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that that is perhaps the first use of the Irish language in a debate in the Scottish Parliament. I say “in a debate” because I am very conscious of the speech of Uachtarán na hÉireann Michael D Higgins in 2016, and I would not want to claim to be the first, given that such an august speaker used Irish in this chamber. However, as someone who has both British and Irish citizenship, I wanted to use cúpla focal in recognition of the values of the institution that we debate this evening. Those values are co-operation, building relationships, building respect and understanding. We seek to co-operate across our islands; we seek to build relationships of family, politics and business; and we seek to show respect for our shared heritage and our commonality as well as understanding of our differing traditions.
Through the power of dialogue, debate and agreement, we can find solutions to common problems for the people whom we represent across these islands. It is a pleasure to follow many fine speeches in that regard, and I pay tribute in particular to Emma Harper for bringing the motion to the chamber. I also pay tribute to all the members of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, the associate members—I declare an interest, as one of those associates—all the staff and all those who help to make the Assembly work so well, including those who have done so in the Scottish Parliament since the beginning of the Parliament almost 25 years ago.
I will use my time this evening to focus on the vital work of the institution in securing and sustaining peace in Northern Ireland. We are now 25 years on from the Good Friday agreement. Last year, I was proud to lead commemorations in this Parliament of that historic moment, with the support of the Irish consul, Mr Jerry O’Donovan, the John Smith Centre at the University of Glasgow and the John and Pat Hume Foundation.
It was wonderful to hear mention of the Northern Ireland Women’s Coalition—Monica McWilliams, who was a founding member of that coalition, was here in the Parliament and spoke passionately about her work. However, I want to focus on John Hume because, without his vision, his total commitment to dialogue and his forbearance, there would be no peace in Northern Ireland, and there would be no British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly as we know it.
As we have heard, the peace process did not begin and end on Good Friday in 1998. It was a long journey, where windows of light let chinks into the darkness along the way, until finally the door of agreement was reached and opened. We had the Anglo-Irish agreement of 1985, the establishment of the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body in 1990, the Downing Street declaration in 1993 and so on—all those moments were crucial on the journey to 1998, and they were all inspired by the architecture of John Hume.
In 1980, John Hume met Humphrey Atkins, who was then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Mr Hume was accompanied by his Social Democratic and Labour Party colleagues Austin Currie and Hugh Logue—with regard to whom I should declare an interest, as he is my father’s cousin. They told the secretary of state that there were three important elements in any political talks: relationships between the people of Northern Ireland, relationships between the people of the north and south of the island of Ireland and relations between Britain and Ireland. Those would become the defining three strands of the Good Friday agreement.
John Hume envisaged that new bodies would help to foster the conditions for a lasting settlement and an enduring peace. It is clear to me that BIPA embodies those three strands: supporting dialogue between the parties and people in Northern Ireland, supporting dialogue north and south on the island of Ireland and supporting dialogue east and west between these islands. The work that colleagues do today is vital in continuing the on-going business of building better futures for us all.
Even as we face the difficult challenges that we have heard about, both domestic and international, it is clear that BIPA is needed more than ever. As our colleagues in the Northern Ireland Assembly have not sat for two years and the institutions of the Good Friday agreement are threatened, it is clear that we must continue to do all that we can to bring people together. We must protect what has been built and offer that east-west hand of friendship, because it matters to so many of us in the diaspora here in Scotland and beyond.
I will end with the words of John Hume, who said:
“When people are divided, the only solution is agreement.”
Therefore, long may the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly be a forum for the solution that is found in dialogue, respect and agreement.
Thank you. Go raibh maith agat.
I call Christina McKelvie to respond to the debate.
17:47
I warmly welcome the debate and congratulate my friend Emma Harper MSP on securing it. I am grateful to colleagues who have contributed. I have noted a number of excellent and interesting points and will do my best to comment on them all, if I can.
The starting point is that the Scottish Government welcomes increased contact with international partners and increased collaboration between this Parliament and other Parliaments, and the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly is a great example of both of those.
My experience of BIPA was attending a meeting in Sligo, where, I remember, Ross Greer and I spoke about both our families’ connections to the area. As the Scottish Government minister for equalities, I was invited to attend to talk about women, because it was 100 years since women had got the vote. They were a cracking a few days. Some of the older men did not quite agree with the younger women in the room about how we should move forward, but we had disagreements and conversations, and we came to a common understanding. That is one of the key messages from today’s debate.
On our international links, as a Government, we are determined to remain outward facing, and I know that the same applies to the Parliament. That is because we believe that that is the best answer to challenges. The best answer is never to retreat from those challenges, to cuddle into our shell, hunker down and not face up to things that are really tough; the best answer is always to work in partnership to seek resolutions. That is all the more important in the current circumstances, in which we face not only the disastrous consequences of Brexit but very real global challenges of which this Parliament is only too aware.
In that context, our support for BIPA underlines our commitment to close partnership with our Irish friends, among others. Ross Greer, Willie Coffey and Paul O’Kane spoke profoundly about the value of building good relationships and BIPA’s role in bringing people together from opposing sides to find resolutions to common issues, as Paul O’Kane said. That is the essence of BIPA’s work.
Annabelle Ewing reminded us of Margaret Ewing’s involvement in the early stages of all that work. She held in high regard the role of BIPA in its earlier iteration and raised awareness of and supported it as much as she could. We attach the same great importance to that relationship. The Ireland-Scotland joint bilateral review, which was co-produced by the Scottish and Irish Governments, recognised how vital partnership working is to diplomacy, the economy, the diaspora, culture, research and education, and rural and island communities. I take this opportunity to publicly pay my personal tribute to the Irish consul general, Jerry O’Donovan. Everywhere I go, he is there. That tells us how engaged he is in every aspect of Scottish life and how we can collaborate.
In July 2023, Ireland’s Tánaiste, Micheál Martin, and Scotland’s Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture, Angus Robertson, met to review progress in implementing the review’s findings. They noted that considerable progress had been made, particularly on business and economic links, cultural collaborations, joint research projects and shared policy engagement on, for example, the resettlement of Ukrainian refugees, renewable energy and health. Today, we have heard some examples of BIPA’s committee work in those areas.
As a committed parliamentarian, I strongly value interparliamentary engagement. There is nothing better than getting together with politicians from other parts of the world who are striving to address the same issues as we are but who might have a different way of thinking about or securing resolutions to them. It is important that good working relationships are built to ensure that learning can be shared on how we best represent the interests of those who are impacted by the decisions that are taken by all our Parliaments. I look forward to, I hope, catching up with Lord Alf Dubs—whom Annabelle Ewing mentioned—when he visits this Parliament. He has been my dear friend for many years and I do not get to talk to him enough but, when I do, I get to hear so many wonderful examples of his lifelong commitment to democracy.
Last year, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Autism visited Scotland to meet counterparts in order to learn more about Scotland’s approach to providing services for children and young people with autism. Again, we all share that work.
Emma Harper, Tess White and Annabelle Ewing spoke about the work of other committees, such as those on housing and languages. Our collaboration on health and social care is a key part of our on-going relationship with Ireland; members of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee should talk to us about the work that it is doing so that we can talk about that work.
The same is true of languages. Language is such a key part of a nation’s culture that is of interest to communities, and BIPA helps to increase dialogue on the importance of languages, whether it is English, Scots, Gaelic, Welsh or Jèrriais, which is the language of Jersey. I know that the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee recently visited Belfast and Dublin to meet parliamentarians to discuss its on-going work on the national outcomes, and I am going to Dublin soon to talk about our cultural links.
The Scottish Government has also been pleased to observe the important work of the parliamentary partnership assembly, which was established under the trade and co-operation agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union. I know that that is difficult ground, but such work is necessary in order to move forward following Brexit. BIPA fits really well into that model, because it creates the circumstances in which we can all meet and talk. Its contribution to enhancing parliamentary connections between Scotland and Ireland is explicitly recognised in the bilateral review and was acknowledged by those who participated in it.
I am sure that all members heard Pauline McNeill’s call for stronger interparliamentary dialogue, and they should take that forward. I, too, would appreciate the updates that Clare Adamson called for, and I agree on the need to nurture the changing relationships.
I think that all members who spoke in the debate mentioned the foundation of this work—the Good Friday agreement—which is key. Members talked about the Good Friday anniversary event that was held a few years ago and the role of women in the peace process. I do not think that the mammies of Ireland have ever had the recognition that they should have had for their involvement in the peace negotiations. We should perhaps take that into account as we move forward.
Ross Greer talked about living in the shadow of what went before and creating some light out of it. Paul O’Kane talked about the relationships. I reassure my friend Emma Harper that, last week, I met the latest cohort of fellows funded by the Scottish Government through the women in conflict 1325 fellowship programme, which relates to women in the peace process. There will be a new cohort in March. It is really important that we are able to do that.
On languages, just so that I can be the same calibre as other members, I note that I am sure that the report from the committee that Tess White mentioned was braw scrievin indeed. [Applause.] I got a cheer from Emma Harper.
This has been a great debate. A key feature of the successful parliamentary work that binds us all together is the need to build relationships. It is vital that we work together, and I am really pleased that members have taken such a respectful and constructive approach to our experiences of BIPA. We should take some lessons from that as we mark BIPA’s work today. I pay tribute to the Scottish members and associates for their work, and I thank Emma Harper again for securing the debate. We would be delighted to have an update on BIPA’s work in the future.
Meeting closed at 17:56.Previous
Point of Order