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The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-14534, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme.
Motion moved,
That the Parliament agrees—
(a) the following programme of business—
Tuesday 24 September 2024
2.00 pm Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Topical Questions (if selected)
followed by Ministerial Statement: Health and Social Care Winter Preparedness Plan 2024-25
followed by Scottish Government Debate: The UK Budget – Scotland’s Priorities
followed by Committee Announcements
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Wednesday 25 September 2024
2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Deputy First Minister Responsibilities, Economy and Gaelic;
Finance and Local Government
followed by Education, Children and Young People Committee Debate: Additional Support for Learning
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Thursday 26 September 2024
11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
11.40 am General Questions
12.00 pm First Minister's Questions
followed by Members’ Business
2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Net Zero and Energy, and Transport
followed by Scottish Government Debate: Scotland Stands with Ukraine
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
Tuesday 1 October 2024
2.00 pm Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Topical Questions (if selected)
followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill
followed by Committee Announcements
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
followed by Members’ Business
Wednesday 2 October 2024
2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;
Health and Social Care
followed by Scottish Labour Party Business
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)
5.10 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Thursday 3 October 2024
11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
11.40 am General Questions
12.00 pm First Minister's Questions
followed by Members’ Business
2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Social Justice
followed by Scottish Government Business
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
(b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 23 September 2024, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.—[Jamie Hepburn].
I call Douglas Ross to speak to and move amendment S6M-14534.1.
17:10
It was exactly one week ago today that two Scottish Conservative motions brought before this Parliament were passed by a majority of members. They dealt with two serious, important and topical issues—peak rail fares and the delivery of free school meals for all primary school pupils across Scotland in the course of this parliamentary session. The votes on those motions were successful, but a week has passed and we have heard nothing from the Scottish Government about how it intends to obey the will of Parliament.
At this point, may I invite the First Minister to address Parliament and indicate, as I am sure he will, that he intends to obey the will of Parliament?
If Mr Ross wishes me to talk about the will of Parliament, what about Mr Ross obeying the will of a Parliament that has voted for there to be an independence referendum so that people can decide? What does he think about that?
Is it not telling but also sad that the First Minister speaks about independence and separating Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom when the discussion is about free school meals for all primary school pupils across Scotland?
In the question that I asked the First Minister—
“may I invite the First Minister to address Parliament and indicate, as I am sure he will, that he intends to obey the will of Parliament?”—
I did not use my words. Those are John Swinney’s words. That is what John Swinney said when he was sitting on the Opposition benches in 2001 and the then Labour-Liberal Democrat Executive had been defeated, resulting in a motion being passed against its will. John Swinney was the first one up on his feet asking for a statement from the then First Minister about how he would obey the will of Parliament. [Interruption.]
Let us hear Mr Ross.
If the First Minister wants to hear more of his words, I can say that he went on to say this:
“Ministers seem desperate to make statements when it suits them, but not when they have problems in Parliament. Will the First Minister give a commitment ... to make a statement to Parliament ... to clarify the Government’s stance on the amended motion to which Parliament agreed?”—[Official Report, 8 March 2001; c 427.]
I could not agree more with what John Swinney said when he was in opposition. Why is John Swinney now not so keen to respect the will of Parliament and come forward to make a statement on these issues?
I know that this is not an important issue for some MSPs—George Adam described the debate about free school meals as extremely tedious.
You are tedious.
Members, can I ask that we conduct ourselves in a courteous and orderly manner?
I do not think that it is extremely tedious. I think that it is extremely important that we have an opportunity to hear from the First Minister or his cabinet secretaries about the two proposals, which they previously supported and no longer do. John Swinney was the Deputy First Minister and education secretary who put the commitment for free school meals for every primary school pupil into the Scottish National Party manifesto. He asked for support to elect his MSPs on that basis. Now, Parliament has asked his Government to come forward with its plans to obey the will of Parliament, which he was previously keen on. I think that it is right that we now look at that.
I recognise the member’s enthusiasm for these policies. Will he, therefore, bring forward amendments to the Scottish Government’s budget to ensure that they progress? [Applause.]
I am very keen on these policies, and I note that people are applauding the idea that the SNP might actually do what it said that it would do.
My colleagues have already engaged in conversation about this—[Interruption.]
Let us hear one another.
—but we would be able to hear more about it and be able to have a discussion if the Government simply made time to enable us to do so.
I have been very clear in my amendment to the business motion. I am not asking for anything to be removed; I am asking for 30 minutes to be added next week—just half an hour—to hear more about John Swinney’s previous commitment to free school meals and to hear more about the SNP’s previous promise to cap peak rail fares.
I hope that the Minister for Parliamentary Business will listen to the will of Parliament, given that parties across the chamber have come together to vote for these two policies to be enacted, and will give us an opportunity to hear from ministers how they will either obey the will of Parliament or tell us why they cannot and will not. Parents of schoolchildren and travellers across Scotland want to know what the Scottish Government will do after the Opposition parties united to tell it that these two issues are of crucial importance.
We need to hear from a minister and, by approving the amendment that I have lodged today, that can happen next week.
I move amendment S6M-14534.1, to leave out
“2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Net Zero and Energy, and Transport”
and insert
“2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Net Zero and Energy, and Transport
followed by Ministerial Statement: Delivering on the Votes of the Parliament on 11 September 2024 to Provide Free School Meals to All Primary School Children in the Current Parliamentary Session and to End Peak Rail Fares”.
I call Jamie Hepburn to respond on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.
17:14
With regard to the amendment that is before us, I must make it clear that, following last week’s debates on these matters, there is nothing new for ministers to set out to Parliament.
Surely something new is that the will of Parliament has been very clearly articulated in a vote that had support from members of the Scottish Conservative Party, the Scottish Labour Party, the Scottish Liberal Democrats, the Scottish Greens and Alba. The difference is that Parliament has now said that the policies should be enacted, so we should at least hear a response from ministers.
Members can bring these matters up across a range of opportunities.
I will return, momentarily, to the subject matter. As was made clear to Parliament last week, although the Scottish Government remains committed to our free school meals programme, we are unable to roll out universal provision to primary 6 and 7 at the current time, due to the financial position. The Scottish Government continues to advocate for an end to Westminster austerity, which the new UK Government has continued. As was also made clear last week, should the financial situation allow, we will look to take universal provision forward in this parliamentary session.
The next stage of the free school meals programme, which has always been an iterative process, is to deliver meals for those who are in receipt of Scottish child payment in primary 6 and 7. I reaffirm that that stage is fully funded and will be delivered in this parliamentary session.
The ScotRail peak fares removal pilot was a temporary arrangement, which was announced as part of the 2023-24 budget. The pilot was initially intended to run for six months, and the Government extended it for a further six months—for a total duration of 12 months. It was not, as has been suggested by some, a Scottish Government manifesto commitment. In light of the financial challenges that we face and the level of additional and continuing subsidy that is required to continue the pilot—against its contribution to tackling climate change, with modal shift from car, and tackling child poverty, which are key Scottish Government policies—we have been unable to continue the pilot beyond 27 September.
However, as the Cabinet Secretary for Transport made clear last week, a 12-month discount on all ScotRail season tickets has been introduced, and the flexipass terms have been amended in order to create the equivalent of a 20 per cent discount. The Cabinet Secretary for Transport is already undertaking action to send members relevant information about those changes in order to encourage take-up.
The Scottish Government has confirmed that, should UK budget allocations to the Scottish Government improve in future years, we would be open to considering future subsidy to remove peak fares.
With regard to the amendment, as I have already made clear, there is always the opportunity for members to question ministers on these matters in the normal way, such as question times, including First Minister’s questions. We will shortly have a Scottish budget to agree, at which point all parties will be able to suggest their priorities and, crucially, set out how they should be paid for.
In response to requests from the Greens and the Finance and Public Administration Committee, I confirm my intention to bring forward a proposal to the Parliamentary Bureau for us to debate issues on the long-term sustainability of Scotland’s public finances. Because there are only three weeks until the October recess, and stage 1 and 3 debates, committee debates and Opposition debates are already scheduled in that time, the earliest that I can bring the proposal forward is immediately after recess. On our return from recess, I am happy to schedule that business as quickly as possible and provide Parliament with the opportunity to debate that important issue.
Given that we have just had parliamentary debates on both of the policy topics that we are talking about, and that our position on those matters has not changed since then, there is nothing for the Scottish Government to add via a ministerial statement at this time.
The first question is, that amendment S6M-14534.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, which seeks to amend motion S6M-14534, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.
17:18 Meeting suspended.
We come to the vote on amendment S6M-14534.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, which seeks to amend motion S6M-14534, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme. Members should cast their votes now.
The vote is closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would have voted yes.
Thank you, Mr Bibby. We will ensure that that is recorded.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Richard Leonard]
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn]
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn]
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay]
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)
The result of the division on amendment S6M-14534.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, is: For 57, Against 69, Abstentions 0.
Amendment disagreed to.
The next question is, that motion S6M-14534, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to.
Motion agreed to,
That the Parliament agrees—
(a) the following programme of business—
Tuesday 24 September 2024
2.00 pm Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Topical Questions (if selected)
followed by Ministerial Statement: Health and Social Care Winter Preparedness Plan 2024-25
followed by Scottish Government Debate: The UK Budget – Scotland’s Priorities
followed by Committee Announcements
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Wednesday 25 September 2024
2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Deputy First Minister Responsibilities, Economy and Gaelic;
Finance and Local Government
followed by Education, Children and Young People Committee Debate: Additional Support for Learning
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Thursday 26 September 2024
11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
11.40 am General Questions
12.00 pm First Minister's Questions
followed by Members’ Business
2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Net Zero and Energy, and Transport
followed by Scottish Government Debate: Scotland Stands with Ukraine
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
Tuesday 1 October 2024
2.00 pm Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Topical Questions (if selected)
followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Aggregates Tax and Devolved Taxes Administration (Scotland) Bill
followed by Committee Announcements
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
followed by Members’ Business
Wednesday 2 October 2024
2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;
Health and Social Care
followed by Scottish Labour Party Business
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)
5.10 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Thursday 3 October 2024
11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
11.40 am General Questions
12.00 pm First Minister's Questions
followed by Members’ Business
2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Social Justice
followed by Scottish Government Business
followed by Business Motions
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
(b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 23 September 2024, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.