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The next item of business is a statement by Neil Gray on ministerial events. The cabinet secretary will take questions at the end of his statement, so there should be no interventions or interruptions.
14:25
I am providing this statement to Parliament on ministerial events and engagements in response to a request from other parties.
Members will be aware of media reports in recent days noting that I attended sporting events in my capacity as a minister. All the information contained in those reports is derived from the Scottish Government’s proactive publication of the ministerial engagements. In other words, those engagements are known about because we routinely and systematically publish details of all ministerial engagements. That is, of course, in line with the Scottish ministerial code.
For as long as there have been ministers, here in Scotland and in the rest of the UK, they have attended a range of engagements and events in their official capacity, as is right. Attendance is one part of Government business that allows ministers to engage and build relationships with key stakeholders and to help to promote Scotland as a place to visit and to work and invest in.
I am sure that members will recognise that sport and major sporting events are one such critical sector, as they bring significant economic benefits to Scotland and act as a key driver in improving the health and wellbeing of our nation. Sport also provides a significant platform to engage domestically and internationally on a range of different issues.
As the cabinet secretary for health, I have attended a number of sporting events in order to demonstrate my support, and the Scottish Government’s support, to the governing bodies of sport, competitors and officials. I will come on to speak in further detail about my attendance at sporting events and football matches, and to set out for the Parliament the detail of those engagements and my engagement in line with the Scottish ministerial code.
Before I do so, I want to make one thing very clear: the role of ministers in attending events is clearly long established. It is undertaken by ministers here and in every other Administration in the United Kingdom. Indeed, I expect that ministers across the UK will attend events this week, including sporting events, as official engagements. That is right. I point that out to make it crystal clear that attendance at such events is legitimate. What would not be legitimate would be to use that role as a way to pursue non-ministerial interests, including as a fan.
It is a matter of regret to me that, by attending four Aberdeen games, I have given the impression of acting more as a fan and less as a minister. I did, of course, attend other football games—games of the Scotland men’s team—and other sporting events, but when it comes to domestic football, I should have ensured that I went to see teams other than Aberdeen. It was not planned that way, but I should not have allowed that situation to develop. I should have made sure that I attended a wider range of games and not just Aberdeen games, and I apologise for my error.
It is a well-established and recognised rule, as is set out in the Scottish ministerial code, that ministers should not accept any gifts, hospitality or services from anyone that would, or might reasonably appear to, place them under any obligation to people or organisations. That is, as the code also sets out, primarily a matter of judgment for ministers, who are personally responsible for deciding how to act and how to conduct themselves in light of the code, and for justifying their actions and conduct to Parliament and to the public.
It was on that basis that I was happy to accept Opposition parties’ calls for a statement on these matters today and to take the opportunity to set out clearly the full facts of my attendance at sporting events, which was in line not only with my ministerial responsibilities but with the obligations incumbent on me, as set out in the ministerial code.
I will focus my remarks on those engagements that have been reported on in the media, but would be happy to provide further information on any of the sporting events that I have attended in my ministerial role.
I attended the Viaplay cup semi-final at Hampden park on 4 November 2023 at the invitation of the Scottish Professional Football League. While there, I had discussions with key stakeholders on the work done by the SPFL trust to support community wellbeing across Scotland. I also heard how sports chaplaincy services support top-level athletes in Scotland, and I held discussions on the significant contribution that football can make to the wellbeing economy.
I attended the Viaplay cup final at Hampden park on 17 December 2023 as a guest of the SPFL. I engaged in discussions with key stakeholders relating to the issue of pyrotechnics at football matches, planning for the European championships in Germany and potential opportunities for business engagement. I again discussed how football can continue to support community wellbeing through both participation in sport and engagement with those in the surrounding communities, particularly around the festive holidays.
I attended the Scottish cup semi-final at Hampden park on 20 April 2024 at the invitation of the Scottish Football Association. I had a detailed discussion about investment in the sport, particularly at grass-roots level, and about the impact that football clubs can have as anchor organisations delivering a wide range of social benefits for their local communities.
I attended a football match at Pittodrie in Aberdeen on 15 May 2024 as a guest of the Aberdeen Football Community Trust. That was part of a wider programme of engagements in Aberdeen that day to coincide with mental health awareness week. Those engagements included the announcement of new funding for the changing room extra time programme; a mental health round-table meeting; a meeting with the charity Scottish Action for Mental Health; a round-table meeting with the SPFL trust; and a visit to St Machar academy.
As I have noted, each of those engagements provided key opportunities to speak with and hear from key stakeholders. A number of substantive discussions were held, for example about our on-going work to increase investment in grass-roots sport, the wider social benefits that clubs can bring to local communities and how sporting events can attract business investment.
For completeness, I inform members that, in addition to those Aberdeen games, I also attended the Scotland v Norway match at Hampden in November 2023, the World Athletics indoor championships in Glasgow, also in March 2023, the Open golf championship at Troon in July 2024 and the Scotland v Portugal game at Hampden last month.
Although not all events that ministers attend involve minuted meetings, summary notes are available and set out the topics covered during discussions at the majority of the engagements that have been reported on. Those notes align with obligations 4.23 and 4.24 of the ministerial code and ensure that discussions relating to Government business are appropriately recorded.
Ministers use Government transport when attending events in a ministerial capacity. In planning travel, all ministers adhere to a set of guiding principles that are set out in the ministerial code and cover propriety, the efficient use of resources, cost consciousness and security. All travel arrangements for ministers are made in line with corporate travel policy and Government car service guidance.
On occasion, and depending on the nature of an official ministerial visit, guests—including family members—are allowed to attend, but that is generally at no cost to the taxpayer. For completeness, I was joined by a family member or guest at six football games, including Scotland games. They travelled with me, but did not do so at any additional cost to the taxpayer.
I hope that the detail that I have provided assures colleagues that all my engagements are always official ministerial business. Ministers across these islands—whether they are from the Scottish National Party or Labour or, previously, Conservative ministers in London—are right to attend sporting events as ministers. It is crucial that we engage with and support sport and that we are seen to do so. That said, I am a football fan and I follow Aberdeen, but I should not have allowed the impression to be given that that played any role in my engagements, and I am sorry for my error.
The cabinet secretary will now take questions on the issues that were raised in his statement. I intend to allow about 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move on to the next item of business. I invite members who seek to ask a question to press their request-to-speak buttons.
Neil Gray used Government limos to watch his favourite football team, and those trips were all billed to the taxpayer. However, he seems to be saying that he was not wrong to charge taxpayers—he was just wrong to go only to Aberdeen games. He has today apologised for giving “the impression of acting more as a fan and less as a minister.” However, he has not just given that impression—that is exactly what he did. He was not even the sport minister when he went to some of the games. This is pathetic. The excuses are an embarrassment. He is treating the public as fools. This scandal demands a ministerial code investigation, because it looks like Neil Gray has misused taxpayers’ money for his own benefit.
Will Neil Gray agree to refer himself to the independent adviser so that this can be fully investigated? He took family members and guests to the games in limos that were paid for by the taxpayer. Does that not confirm beyond all doubt that the meetings were not Government business but a jolly to watch the football? Taxpayers have been duped and they must be refunded in full. Does Neil Gray agree that he must repay the public for all the trips in full?
No. These were legitimate uses of ministerial resources. It is not unusual—in fact, it is explicitly covered in the code—that, on occasion, family members may accompany ministers to ministerial events. That has happened previously and I expect that it will continue to happen.
On Rachael Hamilton’s suggestion about the ministerial code, that is a matter for the First Minister to consider.
I reflect on the points that Rachael Hamilton makes—of course I do—about the appropriateness of the situation. I set out in my statement the apology that I have made for giving the impression of acting more as a fan than as a minister. I will continue to give consideration to the points that she makes as I consider the way in which I conduct my business going forward.
I thank the cabinet secretary for advance sight of his statement. Ministers and shadow ministers have always attended sports events to support our national teams and to meet governing bodies. The attendance of ministers, where appropriate, should be supported by the Government. That is not in question. The key question is whether the correct protocols and rules were followed. Engagements to discuss Government business should be attended by a civil servant and be fully minuted.
Neil Gray has today apologised for his error, and he said that he is happy to provide further information. The Aberdeen v Livingston match at Pittodrie in particular has raised eyebrows. Can the cabinet secretary confirm that all the engagements were by official invitation? Will he publish details of who he met on each occasion and the minutes showing what issues were discussed for all, and not just the majority, of the matches? Will he confirm whether a civil servant was in attendance at each of them?
I thank Neil Bibby for his questions and for outlining the principle of ministers past, present and future attending sporting events, cultural events and business events, as ministers and MSPs will do.
There was proactive release of the events in question and there is a summary note of those engagements. I will need to double check, but I believe that officials attended all the events with me and there will be a note available on what was discussed, as I set out in my statement.
The Scottish Government’s commitment to transparency is clear, given its proactive publication of a wide range of information that relates to ministerial car journeys, events, costs and more. Meanwhile, UK and Welsh Government transparency publications are more limited in the information that they provide, and they appear to be available less frequently. Does the cabinet secretary agree that the UK Government, and other Governments across the UK, should be striving to match the high standards of transparency that have been set by the Scottish Government? [Interruption.]
Before I ask the cabinet secretary to reply, I will say that I have put up with a bit of noise but I am not putting up with it any longer. When it comes to courtesy and respect, we know from the rules that one person has the floor and others do not.
I thank Rona Mackay for her question. I have set out the rules and the transparency about Scottish ministers’ engagements and the publication of information about those. I understand why Rona Mackay raised the issue of ministers in other Governments. However, I am here predominantly to speak about issues that concern my own conduct, so I will let it rest at that.
Neil Gray cheered on Aberdeen from the comfort of VIP seats, and he repeatedly expected the Scottish taxpayer to pay to get him there and back. The minister has now admitted that he did not travel alone to those football matches. As he climbed into his ministerial limousine, showing off to his family and friends, did Neil Gray not realise for just one minute that he was abusing his position and taking the taxpayer for a ride? Before he loses what is left of his credibility, will he commit to paying the money back and to asking the First Minister, who is sitting next to him, to allow a full investigation into the scandal?
It is not unusual for ministers and other MSPs to attend sporting events, business events or awards ceremonies, and to be accompanied by guests. There is provision in the code for that and for family members to accompany ministers in ministerial transport. I reflect, of course, on the question that Craig Hoy has put to me about proportionality, and will do so as I go forward, but the principle of Government ministers and Opposition MSPs attending some of those events with guests is well established. I will rest on that point.
Opposition members appear to suggest that Government ministers should not, in an official capacity, attend events that relate to their ministerial portfolio responsibilities. Would ending that practice be beneficial or detrimental to the work of the Scottish Government?
Attending events allows ministers to undertake vital engagement with key partners who contribute to a multitude of governmental outcomes such as tackling child poverty, improving health and wellbeing, reducing crime, improving educational attainment and increasing social inclusion. Without forming such relationships, we would be unable to work with partners such as the football authorities to tackle some of our most difficult societal challenges—such as racism, sectarianism, homophobia, disorder and the misuse of pyrotechnics. Only with genuine partnership and frequent engagement can we hope to make progress on those issues.
Clearly, the cabinet secretary was not keen on joining the queues at Mount Florida train station after those fixtures, which are infamously long due to the totally inadequate train service to Glasgow Central. What efforts is the Scottish Government making to improve public transport links to the national stadium for those who do not have the benefit of a chauffeured ministerial car?
I am very well aware of the queues at Mount Florida, which I have experienced as Paul Sweeney has. I would be more than happy to take up with him a discussion on travel arrangements for major events such as sporting events at Hampden.
Can the cabinet secretary confirm that the Scottish Government will approve the use of Government cars only for what is official business?
Yes. Civil servants rightly will not, and are simply not permitted to, organise Government cars for anything other than Government business.
Most of the cabinet secretary’s statement talked about which football matches he attended, rather than how he got there. To be clear: if he had attended all those matches and travelled by bus, I would not have the slightest problem with it, and I do not think that most people would, either. Is not the real issue that a great many ministers treat chauffeur-driven cars as the default expectation? My experience is that you can get about without relying on them, except in exceptional circumstances. There needs to be a Government car service, but will the Government review it to ensure that ministers always choose the most sustainable and affordable option?
Patrick Harvie is absolutely right that ministerial cars need to be used for appropriate business. I respect the position that Patrick Harvie comes at the issue from. It is a rarity that I will be in a Government car and not conducting Government business as part of the journey in the car—I am having meetings with officials and others and making phone calls.
The well-established principle of the need for Government cars is there, but I respect the point that Patrick Harvie makes in relation to the position that he has taken in the past as a minister.
I acknowledge that the cabinet secretary has offered an apology, which suggests that he recognises that this does not look good. As he says, it is crucial that ministers are able to engage with a wide variety of stakeholders in a wide variety of ways. It is also important that public perceptions of impartiality are not found to have been let down, as they have been in this case.
This might be more of a question for the First Minister, who is sat next to the cabinet secretary, but does the cabinet secretary believe that there is perhaps a need for more detailed guidance about ministerial attendance at events to help prevent any appearance of inappropriateness or bias?
As I said in my statement, I will of course reflect on the events that I attend. I will not stop attending sporting events, cultural events, business engagements, awards dinners—the types of things that Liam McArthur mentioned.
The ministerial code is a matter for the First Minister, and I know that he is reflecting on that.
Can the cabinet secretary outline to Parliament the criteria for the use of the Government car service by ministers and cabinet secretaries?
Yes. The criteria for the use of the Government car service are well established. I have already set out in response to Emma Roddick that the use of Government cars will be sanctioned by civil servants only for participation in Government business.
My question is a request for a point of clarity in relation to the cabinet secretary’s statement. During the statement, he said that he attended six games with a family member. However, the written copy of the statement says five. Was it six or five? Did the cabinet secretary find one in the past hour, or was it just a typo?
For completeness, there were six games. That was due to me looking back again at the record and the proactive release.
It seems that some Opposition members are suggesting that Government ministers should not be attending events in an official capacity. [Interruption.] I said “some Opposition members”.
Can the cabinet secretary advise whether any of the Opposition parties have come forward with proposals about how and why that should be limited? Most of the questions today have not provided that, with the exception of the question from Liam McArthur.
It is clear, because I have been at some engagements at which Opposition members have been present, that there is a recognition across the chamber of the importance of supporting sporting, cultural and other events that are critical to the fabric of our society. Clearly, I am not here to talk about others; I am here to reflect on my own decision making, for which I have offered an apology.
I will continue to reflect on ensuring that, in the light of the question from Liam McArthur in particular, I am conscious of how the decisions that are taken appear, both in this place and to the public.
Just for the avoidance of any doubt, no one is calling on ministers not to attend events such as the events that we are describing. However, this is a mess entirely of Neil Gray’s making.
It says clearly in the Scottish ministerial code:
“Ministers must be satisfied that their travel arrangements could be defended in public”.
That is the problem here; the travel arrangements that we are discussing are not sustainable. The statement that has been given is so full of further questions that, sadly, the cabinet secretary has not done himself any service here.
I ask again, for clarity: how many officials accompanied the cabinet secretary to the meetings that he says he had, and which we believe he had? If a member of the public submitted a freedom of information request to his office, would there be contemporaneous notes and minutes of the meetings that he says he was attending at the football grounds?
It is entirely appropriate for ministers to use ministerial resources to attend ministerial events. As I have already set out, that is only possible, and will only be sanctioned by civil servants, when that is demonstrable. In all these cases, that is clear.
What I have reflected on, and what I apologise for, is the appearance that I have been acting more as a fan, by not getting the balance right between attending Aberdeen games and attending other games. There are and will be summaries of the discussions that have taken place, which is in accordance with the ministerial code. The ministerial code does not require minutes of meetings in that type of format, but those summaries will be available for all the engagements that I have been participating in.
What other Government business does the cabinet secretary routinely take family and friends to? When he was taking part in the meetings at the football grounds, did the family and friends also take part in those meetings—or where did they go?
It is normal and customary: I have attended many events where other MSPs have guests with them. That is normal for events such as these—for sporting events, business events, awards ceremonies and cultural events. It is also in order for guests to travel in ministerial transport on occasion, as has happened in the past and as will continue. It is clear in the ministerial code that, when those occasions happen and when guests are with us, we must ensure that it is clear who is and who is not part of the ministerial party. That has always been clear.