Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Tuesday, June 13, 2023

Official Report 971KB pdf

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Women Prisoners

The final item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-08593, in the name of Katy Clark, on women prisoners. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament notes reports that the women’s prison, HMP Cornton Vale, is set to close and be replaced by HMP & YOI Stirling on the same site by the summer of 2023; further notes, with concern, reports that Scotland has had one of the largest female prison populations in northern Europe since 2010; understands that nearly 40% of women charged are not charged for a violent offence, with 63% of women in the sentenced population indexed under Group 1 (Violence) in the recorded crime statistics; notes the findings of the International Review of Custodial Models for Women: Key Messages for Scotland by the Scottish Government social research department in 2015, which concluded that “countries with lower rates of female prison populations tend to have different sentencing practices, including a greater use of alternatives to custody and open prisons than is currently available in Scotland”; further notes the view that Scotland’s remand rates for women are too high, including in the West Scotland region; notes that the Scottish Prison Service confirmed in January 2023 that approximately 36% of women prisoners are on remand, higher than the percentage for prisoners who are men; further notes the view that the vulnerable nature of many women prisoners, offending patterns among women and the reported high percentage of women prisoners who are mothers and high percentage of women who have suffered brain injuries as a result of repeated domestic abuse, demonstrate that fewer women should be remanded into custody, and notes calls for the Scottish Government to reverse the real terms cuts to the justice budget, to fund and develop strategies to reduce the number of women on remand, and to consult with women’s groups to develop sustainable alternatives to custody that reflect the specific circumstances of women.

17:13  

I welcome this opportunity to raise issues in the chamber relating to women prisoners in Scotland and to express my thanks to members who have signed the motion to enable the debate to take place.

My motion refers to the closure of Cornton Vale women’s prison and the opening of the smaller HMP Stirling for women. Of course, historically, Cornton Vale housed all of Scotland’s women prisoners, but there are now a number of prisons with women’s wings across Scotland. Cornton Vale closed earlier this year, with women’s prisoners being transferred to other establishments.

The 2012 review by former Lord Advocate Elish Angiolini described conditions at Cornton Vale prison as “antediluvian” and “appalling”. Recently, members of the Criminal Justice Committee visited the new Stirling prison and we were impressed by what we saw. The original proposal in the Angiolini review was for there to be a smaller number of units for women across Scotland, with a greater focus on support and rehabilitation. Last year, two custody units were opened—one with 24 places for women, in Maryhill in Glasgow, and one with 16 places for women, in Dundee. We are advised that those new facilities have been occupied, at best, at only 52 per cent capacity since opening, and representations have been made to the Scottish Government to ask that the criteria for admission be expanded. We understand that the Scottish Prison Service is looking at the issue and I would be grateful for an update on that from the minister today. I am sure that the minister will agree that we would wish these new state-of-the-art facilities at Stirling, Dundee and Maryhill to be fully utilised.

I thank the member for bringing the debate to the chamber. Just yesterday, I had the pleasure of visiting the Bella centre in Dundee and I have to say that its provision for women make it an outstanding facility. I met some of the women who are housed in that facility and they talked of the great benefit that they feel that it is having.

Could Katy Clark reflect on the need for the Scottish Government to learn the lessons of that developing practice? Does she, like me, want to hear more from the Government about what studies might be undertaken to learn the full experience of women in that place and how we can best spread best practice across the rest of the estate? I would be keen to hear more on what research is in place to support that.

I can give you the time back, Ms Clark.

I am grateful to Michael Marra for his intervention and welcome the fact that he has already paid a visit to the Bella centre. I agree that we must look closely at what happens there. A huge amount of public money has been invested in those facilities, which have been established as a result of work that has been carried out over many years and as a result of recommendations in the 2012 report that I referred to earlier. Therefore, as well as reviewing what happens in those places, we need to ensure that they are fully utilised and that all the places are made available to the women who can benefit from them.

The Scottish Government’s stated intention is to transition towards a trauma-informed approach to justice, and I support that evidence-based approach, particularly in relation to women offenders. However, I have to say that I am concerned about the gulf between policy and practice.

The closure of Cornton Vale gives us a good opportunity to reflect on women’s offending, how we deal with that as a society and the patterns of sentencing. I have to say that the Scottish Government’s policy on women offenders is very similar to the one that was adopted by Scottish Labour in Government. That was quite a number of years ago, so I think that we need to reflect on why it has been so difficult to deliver in practice the policy that politicians have set out.

We know that women make up a small percentage of the overall prison population, but, proportionally, Scotland has one of the largest female prison populations in Europe. There are approximately 300 women in custody in Scotland, and the numbers seem to be increasing. We also know from Scottish prison statistics that that is not because women in Scotland are committing more violent offences than women in other countries, but because Scotland has a different approach to women’s offending.

I thank the member for giving way. She is making an excellent speech.

Does the member agree that the cost that is associated with incarcerating someone is significant, at an average of around £35,000 a year, and that that presents an opportunity cost, as that money could be much better spent in a way that would achieve much better outcomes?

Yes, I believe that, for many prisoners, and for women prisoners in particular, it would be better to spend the considerable amount of money that it costs to incarcerate them on interventions that might be less costly and more effective.

The new establishments will house only a minority of women prisoners unless we significantly reduce the overall numbers of women in custody in Scotland. We know that, overall, Scotland’s prison population is the highest in Europe, and that our remand figures are also significantly higher than those in other European countries. That is the case in both the men’s estate and the women’s estate: the remand rate in the men’s estate is currently around 29 per cent to 30 per cent, and the latest figure that we were given in relation to the remand rate for women’s prisoners is higher than that, at 39 per cent.

If we look at the pattern of offences, we can see that women account for different kinds of convictions from men, and we see relatively higher proportions of convictions for crimes such as shoplifting and fraud among the female prison population. It is fair to say that most women prisoners present less risk to society. However, obviously, they have challenges themselves and also present challenges to society, and, often, they will be in chaotic circumstances that are difficult for society to manage. Sheriffs have often said that they find it difficult to know what to do with women and will remand women as it is unclear what alternatives are available.

The low number of women offenders means that there are often fewer alternatives to custody available for women than there are for men. We need to focus on robust alternatives to custody, which are both more effective and cheaper. As I say, often, at the moment, those alternatives do not exist.

Custodial sentences can be blunt instruments. Only this week, a woman in England received a custodial sentence for procuring an illegal late-term abortion. We know that the offences that women who are convicted of murder are convicted of often relate to abusive partners, so offending patterns tend to be different among women prisoners.

Research from abroad and practices in places such as Scandinavia show that those countries have fewer women in custody and that they take a less punitive approach that emphasises rehabilitation. For example, community supervision and electronic monitoring are widely used in countries such as Sweden in relation to cases in which we would put somebody in prison.

For the most part, the types of models that are being adopted in other European countries are not available in Scotland, even though we know that only about 40 per cent of women who are charged are charged with a violent offence. We also know that women prisoners are vulnerable, are more likely to have suffered violence or sexual abuse, have caring responsibilities or are mothers. Recent research has also shown that many have repeated head injuries or, indeed, significant health issues.

I believe that there is a consensus in this Parliament that remand figures are too high and that we need to refocus the justice system, particularly for women offenders, and I warmly welcome all who are here today in the chamber and look forward to their contributions.

17:22  

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in the debate, and I thank Katy Clark for bringing the motion the chamber and congratulate her on her excellent speech.

I agree entirely with the view expressed in Katy Clark’s motion that our women prisoner and remand population in Scotland is far too high. Incredibly, 40 per cent of women in prison have not been charged with a violent offence. A large proportion are victims of domestic abuse and have suffered brain damage as a result of living with a violent man. Many are addicted to drugs or alcohol, brought on by trauma and a chaotic lifestyle.

No woman would choose to go down the path of incarceration and risk losing their home, job and, often most importantly, children. Prison is not the place for them. We know that prison wrecks families and relationships for women and men; that even though many of the 36 per cent who are on remand—a figure that is proportionally much higher for women than it is for men—do not go on to be incarcerated, by that time the damage has often been done; and that most of these women have children. The excellent third sector organisation, Families Outside, is literally a lifeline to those families struggling to cope when a loved one is incarcerated.

With the exception of the most serious offenders, prison is not the place for women. It can only exacerbate the problems that caused them to be there in the first place. So, why are so many women being locked up? Sadly, there is a lack of data around why sheriffs are taking the decision to remand or send women to prison, but the reason why it is happening is important. Is it because there is a lack of alternative options or is it for their personal safety? Until we have the data, we simply do not know.

As convener of the cross-party group on women, families and justice and as a member of the Criminal Justice Committee, I know that this issue has been at the top of the agenda for years, but there has been no real improvement in the figures. However, we are on the right trajectory with the approach set out in the Scottish Government’s “Vision for Justice in Scotland” document, and with the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill and the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill.

The reality is that the current justice system was, historically, designed by men for men, and it really does not meet the needs of more than half of our society. Women and children must be at the heart of our approaches to justice. We must progress a person-centred approach to rehabilitation, where people are supported in the most appropriate and effective setting, and shift the balance to ensure that the role of custody will be reserved only for cases in which no alternative is appropriate.

Everyone going through the criminal justice system should have access to the support and rehabilitation that they need. In that regard, as we have heard, the Scottish Government has instigated four new women’s custody units alongside HMP and YOI Stirling, which is being built on the same site as Cornton Vale. The Lilias centre in Maryhill, Glasgow, and the Bella centre in Hilltown, Dundee, are the two that we have heard about today and are the ones that are open now. I was privileged to visit the Lilias centre just before it opened its doors. It offers a gender-specific and trauma-informed space where assessed women can express and explore the life circumstances that have led them to be in custody, and it will provide a range of evidence-based interventions aimed at maximising the opportunity for reflection, reparation, rehabilitation and, ultimately, reintegration into the community.

We now understand trauma and its lifelong effects. We know that, with intervention, care and support, women who end up in the justice system can reach their potential and live the life that most of us take for granted. Safety, respect and dignity are the very least that those women can expect. We are on the right track to achieving that, but there is still much to do.

17:26  

I thank Katy Clark for bringing to the chamber this important, worthwhile and interesting debate, and I thank members for staying to participate in it. I know how strongly Katy Clark and others in the chamber feel about this issue, and it is right that we give it some time and substantial attention today in the short period that we have. I think that there is also, largely, cross-party support for many of the issues involved. The Criminal Justice Committee works extremely well on a cross-party basis on issues such as this one, and I think that the results that can be seen in many of our stage 1 reports reflect that way of working, which I commend to Parliament.

It is fair to say that, for most people who find themselves remanded into custody and who have committed a crime of some sort, that does not happen in a vacuum and the incident is rarely an isolated one. For example, from various studies, some of which I will reference today, we know that a large proportion of women in custody are victims of domestic violence and abuse. In fact, a recent SPS survey—actually, it is six years out of date, so these figures could probably do with some updating—reported that 70 per cent of the female prison population had been the victim of violence committed by their spouse or their partner, and around 78 per cent reported a history of serious head injury and trauma. I do not know what link one can make between that and the on-going cycle of violence, but, clearly, some academic research needs to be done into that.

What happens in someone’s adult life is not the only factor. We know that adverse childhood experiences and trauma are large contributors to outcomes in our prison population. The study that I referred to, which was done across four prisons, found that 85 per cent of women in prison had experienced childhood trauma, and that 92 per cent of them had gone on to experience further trauma in adulthood. In fact, 60 per cent of women in our prisons meet the diagnostic criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder, which involves actual or threatened serious injury, violence and harm. If violence is all that someone has known from childhood through to adulthood, where on Earth did we expect those people to end up other than prison?

In the short time that I have, I want to touch on not only the issue of cycles of violence but the whole system. Perhaps there are some gaps. We know, for example, that analysis of the female prison population shows very low levels of literacy and numeracy. On a technical level, only 23 per cent of those who were recently assessed had Scottish credit and qualifications framework levels 3 or 2, indicating that they lacked basic literacy functions, and the same is true with regard to numeracy. In fact, I was really surprised to learn that, in a sample of 99 women in Cornton Vale, only 5 per cent of them had post-secondary level qualifications, 42 per cent had no formal qualifications at all and 33 per cent were deemed unable to work outside of the prison environment due to illness or disability.

However, I think that it is fair to say that no one is calling for a blanket ban on sending women to prison. Clearly, in some instances, it is the only place where someone should be.

I am intrigued and struck by comments that sheriffs are somehow remanding people into prison because they deem there to be no other option. I do not know whether that is anecdotal or whether that is true. If it is true, I find that extremely worrying. Public services should be there to fulfil the needs of even those who are accused of crime. Equally, however, recently in my region, I dealt with the case of a female offender who was in prison for a very good reason. She had beaten and sexually assaulted two very young children. She was released after serving just 18 months of her sentence, which led to a conversation locally—instigated not least by victims and victims’ organisations—about whether there was any fairness in that. I am afraid that, for better or worse, some women are capable of very serious crimes. In such a case, custody is the only option.

As others have, I have visited the Lilias centre in Maryhill. There was no one in it at the time, but I could certainly see that it was a different model. Katy Clark is right that it is a very expensive model. However, the ideas of self-management and housing people in households are intriguing. There is a lot to be learned from that initiative. I will be intrigued to see how it progresses and what the outcomes are, particularly when it comes to reoffending.

Time is short today. At the last election, my party’s manifesto had some very specific asks of the Government. Perhaps I will send those on to the minister in writing, to make it easier for the Government to respond—in particular, to those around access to mental health and addiction services in prison and assessment on arrival. I am sure that lots of good work is happening, but I think that it could be improved.

Again, I thank Katy Clark and all members for participating in the debate. Perhaps it is the start of a debate, in the short time that is left in this parliamentary session, to look at some of those outcomes and at what we can all do, on a cross-party basis, to ensure that there is not only fairness but compassion in the justice system.

17:32  

I thank my colleague Katy Clark for her choice of the subject of the debate, and for her excellent speech. The topic is critically important to justice policy, and I am glad that we are discussing women’s offending and the treatment of women prisoners in Scotland’s criminal justice system.

As many of my colleagues have noted, Scotland has one of the largest female prison populations in northern Europe—as has been the case since 2010—yet women make up only 4 per cent of the prison population. A recent review of evidence found that women are less likely to receive a custodial sentence than men and that, when they are sent to prison, their sentences are usually shorter.

Sadly, it has taken us almost 20 years, or more, following various reports criticising the current system for women, to finally recognise the unique characteristics and needs of women in custody, and the fact that many should not be in a prison, as another facility would be more appropriate.

As Rona Mackay mentioned, the Criminal Justice Committee recently had the opportunity to visit HMP Stirling. I, too, was very impressed by the set-up and by the work that the Scottish Prison Service has done there. The site has no high security fences. To all intents and purposes, it is a prison, but it is completely different from Cornton Vale prison.

Women are a vulnerable group. Jamie Greene spoke to that. Often, they have been subjected to domestic violence, coercive control and sexual abuse, including rape. Women in prison have significantly greater rates of poor mental health than women in the general population or male prisoners. One of the top issues for women prisoners is unresolved trauma. We also deal with prisoners who have huge learning difficulties. The characteristics of the female population are an important factor.

In 2021, the Mental Welfare Commission for Scotland published a report on women with mental ill health in prison in Scotland, noting serious concerns about the segregation of women for extended periods and the conditions in which women were held. A significant concern was women’s access to medication and the recording of that. The commission noted that there were gaps in the dispensing of medications for physical and mental health in individual cases, amounting to significant gaps in treatment. The Scottish Prison Service indicates that many women should be in a mental health facility rather than in prison, because of the powers that are needed to deal with those issues.

Women in prison have higher lifetime instances of trauma, including repeated physical and sexual victimisation, than either male prisoners or women in the general population. A study conducted by researchers at the University of Glasgow found shocking evidence that around three quarters of women in prison suffer from a self-reported significant head injury, and that 40 per cent also have an associated disability.

Prison disrupts women’s lives and has long-term effects on the lives of their children. Although precise figures are hard to obtain, it is estimated that approximately 65 per cent of women in prison in Scotland are mothers. Shockingly, only 5 per cent of children stay in their own homes once their mother has been imprisoned. The effect of women’s imprisonment on families, especially young children, can be utterly devastating. As women are much more likely than men to be the primary carer, the impact of a mother’s imprisonment on children is more pronounced, ranging from their having to move home and school, to their having poor academic performance, increased risk of mental health problems, and involvement in the criminal justice system.

We know that women’s offending is different and we need to recognise that women are in prison for fairly minor offences, such as theft, fraud and minor drug-related offences. Only a small minority of women are convicted of violent offences, and a large majority of them have been victims of violence themselves. It is important to highlight that when we develop prison policy.

The introduction of community custody units, such as the Bella centre in Dundee and the Lilias centre in Maryhill, is welcome and long overdue. They are an incredible development and are part and parcel of a redesigned system. One thing that I thought when I visited them was that the overall numbers need to be revisited. Previously, we would imprison 400 women, so we need to make sure that those alternatives to custody exist and that those units are used in the way in which they are meant to be used. A recent report said that at least one of the units was half empty after six months. We must make sure that we use that resource and use it well.

We know that there is a systemic level of violence against women and girls. When women offend, we must make sure that they are housed in an appropriate setting and that they get the opportunity to rebuild their lives. I commend the Scottish Government on making significant progress in creating a new setting for women who offend, and I look forward to the other speeches this afternoon.

17:37  

I am grateful to Katy Clark for bringing to the chamber this debate on women prisoners.

Although Katy Clark and I share similar concerns about remand in general, it is important to note the reasons for the higher percentage of women on remand. The average daily population of women in prison has been decreasing in recent years, and that is welcome. On top of that, there was a 7 per cent reduction in the sentenced population in the women’s estate in 2021-22 compared to the previous year, while the remand population remained stable. The effect of that has been an increase in the percentage of the total population, even though the number of women on remand has not increased. In saying that, I do not disagree that we should be looking at what more can be done to reduce the remand population in women’s prisons. The Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill, which is going through Parliament, will offer additional measures to reduce the use of remand unless absolutely necessary.

In 2019, figures showed that about nine in 10 women who were sent to prison were given a prison sentence of 12 months or less, so it is welcome that Parliament voted for a presumption against such short sentences. Evidence shows that short sentences are ineffective, and the ripple effect of someone going into prison for a few months can cause disproportionate harm to families and, ultimately, society. There is of course a role for prisons, but they must be modern institutions delivering outcomes that improve society.

Victims of crime deserve justice and, in many cases, that will be obtained through a custodial sentence, but there are times when community disposals might be more appropriate. That point ties in with the important point that the motion makes about the prevalence of brain injuries in women in prison and, in particular, those that are acquired through experiencing domestic abuse. Many of the women in prison have experienced abuse, mental health problems or substance misuse, so a key part of reducing reoffending and building a safer Scotland is to ensure that women in prison are supported to reintegrate into, and contribute to, society.

We are all aware of the struggles at Cornton Vale in supporting prisoners with their mental health. The new women’s prison at Stirling has been designed to provide a safe and secure environment where intensive mental health support is available.

Furthermore, the Scottish Prison Service has built new community custody units, including the Lilias centre in Maryhill, which I visited recently. It was good to see the gender-specific and trauma-informed model that the centre uses to best prepare women for reintegrating into the community. Part of that work involves allowing women to engage with the local services that they will need when they are released. That is an issue that the Criminal Justice Committee has talked about at length. The Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill will stop Friday releases to give people the best possible support when they leave prison.

Positive steps have been taken in recent years, from the presumption against short sentences to the use of trauma-informed approaches and community custody units. I have enjoyed hearing from other members, and I look forward to hearing what the minister has to say about the on-going work to ensure better outcomes for women in prison, which will ultimately help to deliver a fairer and safer society.

17:41  

I thank Katy Clark for securing this important debate.

I and my Scottish Green colleagues share Katy Clark’s concerns, in particular about the fact that Scotland’s record on the incarceration of women continues to be so disappointing, especially in comparison to that of our northern European neighbours.

Most, if not all, of us here this afternoon will agree with the objective of fewer women being remanded into custody. We also want far fewer women to be given custodial sentences on conviction, and we want there to be a much more humane, flexible and sensitive environment for those who are already living in prison. The difficult question is how to achieve those outcomes. To do so, we need not only to address issues of process, policy and funding, but to confront some deep-seated social attitudes and some intractable narratives that are blocking our path in following global best practice.

One of those is the binary Manichaean myth of a bright line between survivors and perpetrators of crime. This Parliament is rightly becoming much more conscious of the needs of victims and survivors, especially those who have experienced sexual, domestic and other forms of violence. What is not so widely acknowledged, especially by those who would use victims’ rights as a cover for deeply regressive ideologies, is that the same childhood traumas—the same experiences of abuse and exclusion—can lead either to the witness stand or to what used to be called the dock. The use of language such as “thugs”, “monsters” and “scum” and the demonisation of defendants do nothing to help survivors; they only make it more likely that they themselves will face the same vilification, as the unaddressed cycles of violence, abuse and trauma make their terrible rotation. It is literally a vicious circle, which is perpetrated by right-wing populism in politics and the media, and it intersects with the second noxious narrative—that prison is the only way of taking crime seriously.

We know that incarceration does not lead to rehabilitation. In fact, prison is often one of the worst possible environments in which to achieve social integration and moral maturity. Prisons are not safe places that are free from violence, coercion or traumatic events. We know that incarceration does not act as a deterrent, because people on the verge of committing offences simply do not make those cost benefit analyses.

On the other hand, we know that alternative responses—including restorative and community justice—work and lead to resolution and closure for survivors and to responsibility and reparation by those convicted. However, for as long as the tabloid headlines, and those who take their policy positions from those headlines, weigh justice solely in terms of years behind bars, those alternatives will be starved from the outset. That failure hurts everyone—except, perhaps, those newspaper proprietors and their mouthpieces—but it hurts women most, and it hurts the children whom they care for.

Without sensitive, flexible and holistic support for women who are charged with an offence, remand can seem to courts like the least-worst option. The Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill, which we will debate at its final stage soon, takes a significant step in strengthening the presumption to bail, but that presumption needs to be underpinned not only by adequate services but by a change in attitude—a growth in empathy, understanding and evidence-based decision making.

Of course, we must also work across Government departments, across all levels of the public sector and with third sector partners and community organisations to reduce the number of women who are charged with offences in the first place. As ever, prevention is so much better than treatment. For as long as poverty and inequality remain the key drivers of criminal behaviour and offending, we will have an awful lot of work to do, but we must do that work. Women who are caught up in our criminal justice system—whether as defendants, as victims or as both—deserve no less.

17:46  

I thank Katy Clark for lodging the motion and initiating this debate on women prisoners and the related issues that are raised in the motion, and I thank all members for their contributions to what has been an important debate.

The imprisonment rate in Scotland is too high, as is the proportion of people on remand—I think that all of us in the chamber can agree on that. I recognise the particular impact of the issue on women. There is no single reason why the proportion of women on remand is so high. I know that the Criminal Justice Committee—of which Ms Clark is, of course, a member—has considered the matter in some detail. There are no simple solutions. As a society, we need to consider who and what we think imprisonment should be for. Debates such as today’s one are essential in informing that consideration.

The Government has been clear that, in our view, imprisonment will always be needed to protect the public, including victims, from harm. We are also clear on the importance of issues relating to women in the justice system, both as victims and in relation to offending or alleged offending. Of course, many women who are in the justice system as a result of offending have also been victims and have experienced significant trauma, adversity and abuse, as has been mentioned.

Through our vision for justice and the First Minister’s policy prospectus, our strategic approach is focused on shifting the balance between the use of community disposals and prison, when appropriate, with particular focus on the needs of women who offend. Although prison will always be necessary in some cases, the reality is that a period of imprisonment often disrupts families and communities and adversely affects health, employment and housing—the very things that we know support desistance from offending. When prison is the only suitable punishment, we will continue to invest in modernising our prison estate and supporting our prison staff.

The motion notes that HMP Cornton Vale is in the process of being replaced by HMP Stirling, which is a significant milestone that follows a period of unprecedented and sustained investment to transform and modernise the female estate so that it supports women towards a more settled path in life. The new Stirling prison will provide world-leading facilities that are designed to meet the specific needs of women by focusing on rehabilitation and reducing reoffending, and it follows the opening of two new community custody units for women in Dundee and Glasgow in the past year, as has been mentioned. The units use evidence-based design models to produce the best possible outcomes for the women and for their families and communities. HMP Stirling will deliver world-leading trauma-informed care and management for women in custody, which will give them the best possible chance of a successful return to their communities on liberation.

We are also taking a range of actions to shift the balance from the use of custody to community interventions, which, we know, are more effective at reducing reoffending. That includes legislative action. The Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill, which is currently at stage 3, intends to refocus the use of remand so that it is reserved for those who pose a risk to public safety, victim safety or, in certain circumstances, the administration of justice. For those who do not pose such a risk, bail should be the default.

The bill seeks to improve the support that is provided to those leaving prison, to help them to resettle in their communities, in recognition of that fact that that can be a vulnerable time.

What conversation has either the minister or the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs had with the Sheriffs Association? Clearly, there has been a discussion around whether remand for women has been overused—in particular, by male sheriffs—for the reason that we have mentioned: that there are no alternatives. I am keen that we understand the data that drives such an accusation, because it is quite a serious one. Will the Government undertake to have that conversation with the Sheriffs Association, as a result of what has been said today?

Minister, I can give you the time back.

I have not had such a conversation, and I will ask the cabinet secretary whether she has. If she has not, I will ask that she endeavour to meet the Sheriffs Association to find out the substance of what has been said.

Legislation alone is not the answer, of course. That is why the Government continues to invest in community justice services, including alternatives to remand, against a backdrop of significant financial constraints. In 2023-24, we will invest £134 million in community justice services, including £123 million that is allocated to local authorities, with a specific investment of £3.2 million for bail assessment and bail supervision services. That is having an impact, with more local authorities establishing a bail supervision service alongside the on-going roll-out of electronically monitored bail services.

Sentencing and decisions on remand are key when it comes to any discussion about women in prison. It is important to note that such decisions are, rightly, a matter for the independent judiciary, working within the legislative framework that has been established by the Parliament.

I have mentioned the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill, but earlier reforms such as the extension of the presumption against short sentences are also relevant. My colleague Collette Stevenson mentioned that. The evidence is that women, on average, receive shorter sentences than men, are less likely to receive a custodial sentence and are reconvicted less often.

Women also represent a minority of those who are convicted of a crime and of the prison population in Scotland, a feature that is consistent over time, and they tend to be convicted of different types of crime in comparison with men.

Women in prison in Scotland often present with a number of complex and interconnected needs, as we have discussed. Broadly speaking, they disproportionately experience physical and psychological problems, which are frequently exacerbated by substance abuse and are often the result of traumatic events in childhood and in adulthood. It is right that we continue to take a gender-informed and trauma-informed approach to prevent offending and support effective rehabilitation in the community and in custody.

I will comment on some of the contributions to the debate. Katy Clark and Pauline McNeill mentioned the community custody units. The Scottish Prison Service is actively considering ways in which it could change the criteria for admission to those, to maximise the benefit for women. A formal evaluation is currently under way, and I will ensure that the members are updated on that.

Rona Mackay, Collette Stevenson and Jamie Greene mentioned women who had been traumatised through head injuries and adverse childhood experiences. The Scottish Government takes seriously the responsibility of ensuring that those who go through the criminal justice system with mental health issues are appropriately supported, treated and cared for, while ensuring that their rights are maintained.

I offer the assurance that the Government is committed to addressing the challenges in respect of women in our prisons. I point to the progress that we have made, while acknowledging that there is more still to be done and that that will take time and political consensus. I look forward to working with members to deliver the changes that are needed.

Meeting closed at 17:54.