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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Meeting date: Thursday, October 10, 2024


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Prisoners (Early Release)

1. Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con)

Just weeks ago, the Scottish National Party released almost 500 prisoners early, before they had served their sentences. In 98 per cent of those cases, the victims were not even told. The Government is now considering the early release of some of the most dangerous criminals in Scotland. Does John Swinney believe that that is the right thing to do?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

I understand the seriousness of the issues that Mr Findlay has put to me. We have to address the rising prison population in a sustainable and effective way. The Government took measures that were explained fully to the Parliament, and they took place only once we had parliamentary consent to those steps.

Fundamentally, there is a difficulty about the rise in the prison population. This morning, the prison population is sitting at 8,322, which is a very high level. Ministers are concerned about the wellbeing of prison officer staff and prisoners as a consequence of the level of congestion in our prisons. We have to act, and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs will give a statement to the Parliament this afternoon on those issues.

Russell Findlay

In 2015, John Swinney’s Government ended the automatic early release of prisoners serving sentences of more than four years. My party voted against it, because we believed that the measure should have gone further by applying to both short-term and long-term prisoners. The SNP believed the same—at one stage, at least. Nicola Sturgeon even said:

“Our objective remains to end the policy of automatic early release completely”.—[Official Report, 2 April 2015; c 19.]

John Swinney might be even softer on crime than Nicola Sturgeon. Victims groups feel that killers, rapists, domestic abusers, drug dealers and child abusers could be freed early. Does the First Minister believe that such prisoners should be let out without any consideration for victims or public safety?

The First Minister

If we were to follow the logic of what Mr Findlay said in his question to me and the Conservative position that he articulated from 2015, it would result in a much higher prison population than we have today: it would result in prisoners serving longer than is the case, and we would have an even more congested and, I would say, unsafe prison estate.

We must take the appropriate measures to ensure the sustainability of our prison system. The reality that we face in the prison system today is not one that we are alone in facing, because it has been faced in other parts of the United Kingdom. Significant action was taken by Mr Findlay’s colleagues in Government before the general election—and has been taken by the new Labour Government after the general election—to address the fact that there is significant pressure on prison populations throughout the United Kingdom.

We will take a responsible approach, which will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny, and we will always take into account the perspectives and views of victims and address the concerns that they legitimately have about these difficult issues.

Russell Findlay

The reason why the prisons are in such a catastrophic state is entirely down to this SNP Government.

Let us take a look at the kind of criminals that we could be talking about if a new form of SNP early release is announced today. Here are some examples of recent sentences that have been imposed by Scottish courts: seven years for raping a 10-year-old girl; nine years for stabbing a man to death; and five years for sexually abusing four young boys. All those criminals, and many others like them, could be let out early. People in the real world cannot get their heads around criminals not serving the sentences that they are given. Would the First Minister ever find it acceptable to let those kinds of criminals out early?

The First Minister

The issues that Mr Findlay raises are serious. It is not for me to question the sentencing policy that is independently decided by the judiciary. If I was to do that, I would be breaching my constitutional role as First Minister, in which I must respect—this was part of the oath of office that I took when I became First Minister—the distinction between my responsibilities as the leader of an executive Government, and the independent role of the judiciary. If I were to trespass into that area, I would fundamentally compromise the independence of the judiciary. That might be what Mr Findlay wants to do, but it is certainly not what this First Minister, who respects the rule of law and the oath of office that he took, is going to do.

Mr Findlay has suggested that, somehow, we are experiencing a lack of action on justice. Our prisons are absolutely bursting at the seams. That suggests to me—[Interruption.]

Things have been shouted at me, so let me clarify that point. Scotland imprisons more offenders per head of population than most other European countries. As a Government, we already invest heavily in alternatives to custody to make sure that we have a sustainable prison estate. Today, we must ensure that the prison officers who run our prisons and our prisoners, to whom we have legal obligations, are working and living in a safe and stable environment. That will underpin the Government’s actions.

Russell Findlay

Unbelievable. What a stunning lack of self-awareness. John Swinney talks about respecting judicial independence, but by releasing 500 prisoners early, he trashed judicial independence.

Over the past 17 years, the SNP has relentlessly weakened justice in Scotland. Criminals already get away with inflicting pain and misery on innocent people due to the SNP’s failure to tackle crime. Victims and the law-abiding majority are paying the price. For far too long, the SNP’s justice system has sided with criminals and not with victims. We have the police issuing a slap on the wrist for serious crimes, the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service diverting criminals from prosecution and prisoners not serving sentences that have been imposed by the independent judiciary. There is a stunning lack of common sense, and it is leaving people feeling that this Parliament does not represent them.

Why has the Government stacked the entire justice system against crime victims?

The First Minister

That is patently untrue. Over the past decade, the average length of prison sentences has increased by 32 per cent. That statistic alone demonstrates that Russell Findlay is putting complete nonsense to me at First Minister’s question time. Ninety-eight per cent of all those who were convicted of rape and attempted rape between 2019 and 2022 received a custodial sentence. That is another fact that refutes what Russell Findlay has put to me today.

We have an obligation to ensure that we run a stable and safe prison system. Given the level of the prison population that we have just now, it is a challenge for ministers to fulfil our obligations in that respect, so ministers must act. The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs will give full and transparent information to Parliament in her statement this afternoon, and the Government will take the steps that have to be taken, but it will require the consent of Parliament to do so.


National Health Service

2. Anas Sarwar (Glasgow) (Lab)

When the Parliament returns after the coming recess, it will be the start of winter. We have a winter NHS crisis every year, but the Royal College of Emergency Medicine has said that there is a winter crisis every day and that the Government continues to disregard the urgent need to keep patients moving through the system. [Interruption.]

I do not know why members are heckling people who are struggling to get NHS treatment. I am talking about their constituents.

I ask members to ensure that we can hear one another.

Anas Sarwar

That behaviour tells us everything that we need to know about Scottish National Party members’ priorities.

The Royal College of Emergency Medicine has said that it is like

“the winter crisis ... but every day”

and that the Government is

“continuing to disregard”

the urgent need to keep patients moving through the system.

Three key factors exacerbate the crisis: the number of beds and resources that are lost due to delayed discharge, patients not being treated due to long waits and a lack of capacity that leaves accident and emergency departments overwhelmed. We need meaningful action.

As I speak today, an estimated 1,500 people are stuck in hospital because of a lack of care packages. Can the First Minister guarantee that social care packages will be in place for all those who are needlessly stuck in hospital, so that they can get home for Christmas?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

I acknowledge the challenges that Mr Sarwar puts to me. He knows from our exchanges in previous weeks that the issue of delayed discharge occupies a significant proportion of my time and the attention of the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, because it is at too high a level and is too high for the start of winter. I am deeply concerned about that issue.

We are working with individual partnerships to reduce the level of delayed discharge in different parts of the country. There is significant variation around the country: some parts of the country have very low numbers of patients who are in hospital but who could be in other care settings or at home, whereas those numbers are too high in other parts of the country.

I assure Mr Sarwar that deep and intense work is going on with individual partnerships to reduce levels of delayed discharge and to ensure that the objective that he puts to me, which is one that I want to deliver, can be achieved as we approach winter.

Anas Sarwar

Despite what the First Minister says, the Royal College of Emergency Medicine has said:

“we haven’t seen any useful measures so far”

from the Government.

Long waits pile even more pressure on our NHS during winter. Information obtained following a freedom of information request has revealed shockingly long waits for treatment. Some people have been waiting since 2017 for urology treatment, which is a seven-year wait; some have been waiting for general surgery since 2018, which is more than six years; and some have waited more than five years for ophthalmology, gynaecology or orthopaedic treatment, among others. That is scandalous.

The SNP promised to clear waits of more than two years by September 2022, but it has utterly failed. People who go untreated often end up in emergency departments as their condition deteriorates, which places even more pressure on NHS services. Can the First Minister guarantee that every patient who has already waited for more than two years will be treated by Christmas?

The First Minister

The national health service is working to reduce waiting times for individuals. The latest information that is available to us on NHS in-patient and day-case activity, which is for quarter 2, tells us that that is now at the highest level since the start of the pandemic.

The problems that Mr Sarwar puts to me are an accumulation of the impact of delays to treatment because of the pandemic. On waiting times, the figures that I just put on the record show the 10th quarterly increase in a row and are 9.9 per cent higher than they were during the same period last year. That comes on top of the fact that, over the past 12 months, there has been a 5.1 per cent increase in the number of operations performed, which addresses part of the issue that Mr Sarwar put to me, principally with regard to orthopaedic treatment and others.

We are seeing an improvement in national health service capability and in its capacity to impact on the waits that Mr Sarwar put to me, but we have significant challenges to overcome as a consequence of the pandemic. The Government is focusing resources through the investments that we are making. In this financial year, we have allocated more than £19.5 billion—a record amount of funding—to the national health service to ensure that the resources are in place to address the challenges that Mr Sarwar put to me.

Anas Sarwar

The Scottish Government promised to clear all waits of more than two years by September 2022. People are waiting four, five, six or seven years for treatment, so that response will be cold comfort for people across the country right now.

There is no commitment to guarantee care packages for the 1,500 people who are needlessly stuck in hospital in order to free up much-needed beds and resources. There is no commitment to clear long waits of more than two years by Christmas, which means patients suffering and pressures being added to A and E departments. Those solutions would unlock much-needed capacity in our NHS.

The health secretary published his winter preparedness plan two weeks ago, but it has already been dismissed by key figures in our NHS. Rather than having an actual plan for winter, the Government is supposedly moving to year-round surge planning. Despite what the health secretary says, that proves that we have a crisis in our NHS all year round—a permanent crisis in our NHS. Will the First Minister listen to doctors and nurses on the front line and come back to the Parliament with an actual plan to meet the scale of the NHS crisis this winter?

The First Minister

The Government is putting in place the planning to do exactly that. That is the core duty of the Government. We are also putting in place resources—record investment of £19.5 billion in the national health service is delivering increases in staffing levels to ensure that there is the capacity to deliver the treatment that is required in the national health service.

We have to recognise that the Government can allocate only the resources that it has at its disposal, and we are allocating a record amount of funding. As Mr Sarwar knows, because we have rehearsed these points many times before, the climate of austerity that we have wrestled with for the past 14 years—[Interruption]

Mr Sarwar.

The First Minister

—from the Conservative Government places significant challenges on our resources, but we have exceeded the amount of money that was allocated through the Barnett formula to the health service because of the commitment of this Government.

Mr Sarwar thinks that it would help to follow his approach on taxation, which would reduce public expenditure in Scotland by £1.5 billion. That would not help the national health service one little bit. On funding, as the United Kingdom Secretary of State for Health and Social Care said when he was in opposition,

“All roads do lead back to Westminster”.

We will wait to find out what the budget tells us when the Parliament comes back after the October recess. Let us see whether the Labour Party breaks with austerity and whether Labour is prepared to invest, because what Mr Sarwar has put to me today is a demand for more investment, but we are not getting that from the Labour Government.


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when the Cabinet will next meet. (S6F-03447)

The Cabinet will meet shortly after the October recess.

Alex Cole-Hamilton

Steven is a teenager who is waiting for a diagnosis for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and a range of other complex conditions. His initial consultation with child and adolescent mental health services was five years ago, but he is still waiting for treatment, and his family have no idea when he will reach the front of what must now be the longest queue in the national health service. They fear that he will face more of the most important years of his life—with schooling, relationships and exams—without the care pathway or the medication that he needs.

This is a national crisis. Across Scotland, the number of ADHD referrals has skyrocketed—in Glasgow, it is up by 1,000 per cent among adults—but resources have simply not kept pace with demand. Today is world mental health day, and we know that ADHD often presents alongside other conditions, including anxiety and depression. When we get to next year’s world mental health day, will Steven and others like him still be waiting for care?

The First Minister

First, I am sorry that Steven has waited as long as Mr Cole-Hamilton has narrated to me today. If he wishes to furnish me with information about the case, I will, of course, look into it and see what can be established.

What I will say to reassure Mr Cole-Hamilton is that there has been a 15 per cent increase in the number of people accessing CAMHS compared with pre-pandemic levels. In the financial year 2023-24, 18,366 patients started treatment with CAMHS and, in 2022-23, the highest number of people on record started treatment with CAMHS. One in two children and young people who are referred to CAMHS now start treatment within six weeks, which is a significant improvement on pre-pandemic levels.

I know that that is no comfort in addressing the particular circumstance that Mr Cole-Hamilton put to me, but I assure him that the Government has put resources into that area of activity. In 2022-23, the budget was increased from £98 million to £114.8 million—an increase of 17.2 per cent. I hope that that is an indication to Mr Cole-Hamilton of the seriousness with which the Government takes those issues and of its willingness to address them. We will, of course, commit to doing more, and we will consider the points that Mr Cole-Hamilton has put to me when we settle on our budget position for the next financial year. I hope that we will be able to make improvements on that question.


Fair Work (Tips and Gratuities)

4. Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is, regarding any potential impact on its fair work agenda and the night-time economy in Scotland, to the new United Kingdom legal framework that has come into force requiring employers to pass all tips, gratuities and service charges on to workers. (S6F-03439)

The First Minister (John Swinney)

We welcome the new legal framework, which will ensure that tipping practices are fair, transparent and for the benefit of hospitality, leisure and service workers, who do a great job, every day, in serving our communities across Scotland. The legislation is a step in the right direction for improving pay and conditions for workers.

The Scottish Government is committed to fair work as a key driver for achieving sustainable and inclusive economic growth and a wellbeing economy. Through our fair work first policy, we are using the Scottish Government’s financial powers to drive fair work practice and enable Scotland to be a fair work nation by 2025. We will continue to work in partnership with business to ensure that the measures enhance those important economic sectors.

Clare Adamson

I, too, heartily welcome the move. Employers should never seek to profit from tips that are given to hard-working staff.

I note that, under the new legislation, workers will still need to pay tax on their tips. Does the First Minister share my indignation that His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs appears to exempt politicians from paying tax on gifts from donors, despite requiring my constituents to pay tax on gratuities in other sectors? Does he agree that that represents a clear inequity that the Labour Government should amend?

The First Minister

Clare Adamson has made a reasonable point, and she welcomes the legislative changes. However, key aspects of the income tax system, such as the definition of taxable income, continue to be reserved. This Parliament cannot effect change on matters such as tips and taxes on gifts.

Clare Adamson has made a very fair and reasonable point, which I am sure will have been heard by those who take those decisions in the United Kingdom Government. If they are at all interested in fairness, the call that she has made should be acted on. [Interruption.]

Mr Sarwar.

I am not quite sure why Mr Sarwar is so agitated about this—maybe he has something to be worried about. The fair and substantial point that my friend and colleague Clare Adamson made should be heeded.

Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab)

I am interested in fairness, which is why I welcome the UK Government’s publication today of the Employment Rights Bill, which will bring about the biggest increase in workers’ rights in a generation—ending fire and rehire, banning exploitative zero-hours contracts and introducing day 1 rights. That is all in the first 100 days of a Labour Government. [Interruption.]

Let us hear Mr O’Kane.

Paul O’Kane

What about the Scottish Government’s fair work agenda? I and colleagues have written to Government ministers about fair work in the night-time economy and social care, and we have been told that no support is forthcoming to deliver on the promises that this Government made on fair work. When will the Government make good on its fair work promises? In the spirit of new partnership, what work has the Government done with the new Labour Government to ensure the implementation of those workers’ rights, here in Scotland?

The First Minister

The Deputy First Minister has raised and discussed co-operation between the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom Government with the Deputy Prime Minister, Angela Rayner, and I have an opportunity to meet the Prime Minister tomorrow, both individually and as part of the council of the nations and regions. I look forward to that.

We welcome the Employment Rights Bill that has been published, and we will co-operate on its implementation. I am struck by the fact that the general secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Congress has argued for the devolution of employment law to the Scottish Parliament so that we can be insulated from the legislation that has been used by the previous Conservative Government to undermine workers’ and labour rights in Scotland. Of course, I very much agree with the STUC on that point.

Mr O’Kane raised with me the fact that we are at the 100 days moment. It is important that, for completeness, we talk about all the things that have happened in those 100 days. We have had the cut to winter fuel payments for pensioners, which nobody expected to come from a Labour Government, but it has been prepared to protect the rich and punish the poor. What on earth has the Labour Party been up to in its first 100 days in office?


Breast Reduction Surgery (Waiting Times)

To ask the First Minister what support the Scottish Government is providing to NHS boards in order to reduce waiting times for breast reconstruction surgery. (S6F-03444)

The First Minister (John Swinney)

I am acutely aware that there are patients who have waited too long for reconstructive breast surgery. I sincerely apologise to them for that. Reconstructive surgeries are generally highly specialised and can be performed only in certain specialist centres across Scotland, which are currently concentrating their efforts on treating patients with trauma or active cancers. Regrettably, that means that some patients are waiting longer for reconstruction.

As part of this year’s £30 million additional investment to address backlogs, we have allocated funding to several health boards to treat patients who are awaiting risk-reducing mastectomy and immediate reconstruction. Building on that work, officials are now engaging with health boards to develop and progress the plan for patients with delayed reconstruction.

Tess White

The Press and Journal has reported that Denise Rothnie was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2020. NHS Grampian told her that she could have a mastectomy straight away but, due to the pandemic, she could not have a reconstruction at the same time, because of limited surgical capacity.

Three years on, Denise is still waiting for her reconstruction. She is languishing at the bottom of a waiting list because, shockingly, the resources to help her are still not available. First Minister, you have apologised today, and I am sure that Denise will be grateful for that. However, when will she, and other women in that terrible position, receive that vital operation?

Always speak through the chair.

The First Minister

I am sorry for the circumstances that Tess White puts to me, but the explanation that I have given illustrates the challenges that we face. Clinical priority is driving attention to addressing patients who face trauma or active cancers. As I explained in my answers to Mr Sarwar, we are trying to make progress on the backlog of cases that emerged during the pandemic, which is the context for the case that Tess White raises.

I cannot stand here and offer an instant solution—I am sorry about that—but I will give Tess White a commitment that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will engage constructively and actively with health boards to try to make more progress on the issue that she puts to me on behalf of her constituent.

I hope that Ms White and her colleagues will understand that clinical priority is being attached to trying to save lives in the circumstances that we face. In that respect, progress has been made on cancer waiting times, but I know that that will be cold comfort to the constituent whose case Tess White fairly puts to me.

Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab)

Given the story that we have just heard, and the fact that, since 2020, no data has been published on breast reconstruction waiting times following mastectomy, will the First Minister commit today to ensuring publication of good-quality data on such waits as soon as possible, so that we can properly see the relevant trends?

The First Minister

We are exploring issues on the quality of the data that we could publish. I say to Carole Mochan that I will take her question away and determine what information can be published. She will understand that I am explaining the problem. I do not have a solution to it today, because of the clinical priority that has been attached to treating cancer. I am very happy for us to be open about the challenges that we face, but we must do so on the basis of good-quality information. I will do what I can to address the point that she puts to me.


Borders Railway Extension

6. Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to reported concerns that the United Kingdom Labour Administration has not affirmed the commitment, which was signed in March 2021 by the UK and Scottish Governments under the Borderlands growth deal, to allocate £5 million towards a feasibility study to extend the Borders railway to Carlisle. (S6F-03457)

The First Minister (John Swinney)

We recognise that extending the Borders railway to Carlisle is a regional priority. The Borderlands deal includes a commitment of up to £5 million each from the United Kingdom and Scottish Governments to develop a shared understanding of the benefits and challenges of extending the line. We recently advised Scottish Borders Council that we are content with its proposal to recruit a project manager to lead that work. The release of our funding is, however, contingent on the UK Government approving its share of project costs, as the growth deal is a partnership programme and the project will deliver a cross-border assessment.

I encourage UK Government ministers to reaffirm their commitment as soon as possible.

Christine Grahame

I note that the position is that the incoming Labour Government has apparently not reaffirmed its 50 per cent share of funding. Thankfully, Scottish Borders Council has agreed to progress with the appointment of a senior project manager to lead the delivery of the business case and feasibility work for the extension of the very successful Borders railway beyond Tweedbank to Carlisle, using the 50 per cent funding commitment that was announced by the Scottish Government in June this year—I note the caveat that the First Minister gave in that regard—in advance of receiving full approval to proceed from the UK Government.

Is it not of concern that Labour may be short changing Scotland in this very modest investment, which could have a positive impact on communities, particularly across Midlothian and the Borders?

The First Minister

Christine Grahame puts a case to me in relation to the Borders, but I am aware of a number of cases in which questions have been raised and pauses announced around funding that we and local partnerships believed had been agreed under the city and growth deals that were negotiated in the past. Those funds are being paused essentially for review during the spending review period. I understand, from the information that has been made available to me, that some of that will not be clarified in the budget at the end of October but may have to wait for the spending review that comes in the spring. Obviously, that causes a significant delay to some of the projects that we would ideally wish to take forward and which communities are expecting.

I assure Christine Grahame that those issues are the subject of active discussion and dialogue with the UK Government, and we will continue to engage in that.

Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)

I thank Christine Grahame for bringing up this important issue. Thankfully, passenger numbers on the Tweedbank line have returned to pre-pandemic levels, but people in Hawick and Newcastleton feel left out by the issues with the connectivity to their areas.

The Conservative Government pioneered the Borderlands growth deal, which we all welcomed. When does the First Minister plan to meet the Labour minister, Lord Hendy, to discuss that very important issue and to reiterate the benefits of the Borderlands growth deal and the extension to Carlisle?

The First Minister

I am glad to hear the enthusiasm of Rachael Hamilton and the Conservatives for the Borders railway, because I have been around here for so long that I remember that that was not always the case when the proposal was going through the Parliament. However, we will all move on.

I am delighted that the Conservatives value the Borders railway. I think that it is super and that the level of passenger numbers that has been achieved is tremendous. I know that there is quite often quite a lot of congestion on the Borders railway, and we are doing our best to address that. The Cabinet Secretary for Transport takes forward all those issues with her counterparts in the UK Government. She was actively involved in discussions on those questions just last week with the UK Government, and that approach will be maintained.

Keith Brown (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)

The Borders railway was, of course, the longest new railway to be built in the UK for more than 100 years.

On cross-border rail travel, will the First Minister acknowledge the recent announcement this week that the Labour Government is looking to extend HS2 into London but has no plans to do what was originally intended and bring it into Scotland, even though the project has cost billions of pounds more than it was meant to cost, and may cost more than £100 billion? The wastage is enormous, and yet there is no commitment to Scotland. Will the First Minister raise that with the UK Government?

I am interested—

The Presiding Officer

First Minister, if I may. It is important that supplementary questions refer to the substantive question in the Business Bulletin. Therefore, we will move to constituency and general supplementary questions.


Productivity and Capital Expenditure

Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP)

Today, the Financial Times reported that the United Kingdom’s productivity is at its lowest level since 1850. It has also been reported that UK Government ministers have been asked to model cuts to their capital expenditure plans of up to 10 per cent. Does the First Minister share my concern about the impact that that will have on both Scotland’s economic prospects and its public finances? Will he continue to press the UK Labour Government to reassess that and to plan for growth, not austerity?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

Michelle Thomson puts a very fair point to me. We have had 14 years of the austerity experiment, and it has been a complete disaster. Our public services are under acute pressure and productivity in the economy has not strengthened because we have not had the sustained investment that is required.

The Scottish Government’s capital budget is facing a cut of about 9 per cent, and we are experiencing increases in costs because of multiple factors with construction cost inflation, which in some circumstances exceeds 35 per cent of costs. Those are the realities and they require investment in our economy.

In light of the question from Michelle Thomson, I would appeal to the United Kingdom Government to use the budget on 30 October to end austerity and to start investing in the economy. That is what we need in order to fuel growth. Austerity has failed, and Labour will fail Scotland if it does not end austerity.


Potential Strike Action (Perth and Kinross Council)

Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

Parents and pupils across Perth and Kinross are deeply concerned at the threat from Unison to strike for two weeks from 21 October, closing schools at the end of the local autumn holiday for a further fortnight. That action is being deliberately targeted at the First Minister’s constituency, and it will impact on young people, many of whom have already had their schooling disrupted by Covid.

Unison claims that it simply wants the same pay rises that other public sector workers have already been awarded, but school pupils are caught in the crossfire. What is the Scottish Government doing to try and avoid that damaging action proceeding?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

Mr Fraser will not be surprised to know that I take the issue deadly seriously, as a parent of a school pupil in Perth and Kinross who stands to be affected and as the representative of 64,000 people in my constituency whose families stand to be affected.

Let me be absolutely clear with Parliament: I think that there is absolutely no justification for singling out and targeting my constituents just because I am the First Minister of Scotland. The Government is not even the employer here. A pay deal has been offered by local government—by the employers—which has been accepted by two out of the three trade unions. The two requests that were made for an offer to be made that was in excess of, or comparable to, the offer made to local government workers in England and Wales were fulfilled by the local government offer. A second test was that there had to be progress towards £15 an hour and the protection of low-paid workers, and that was fulfilled by the response of local authorities. For that offer to be accepted by two unions and rejected by a third, and for my constituents to be singled out for this treatment just because their MSP happens to be the First Minister, is absolutely unacceptable.

I hope that there can be some dialogue with the local authority employers to bring the situation to a conclusion. The Government has put additional money into the financing of the offer. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government has had to come to the Parliament to make £500 million of spending cuts to make the investment, and there is no more Government money available. Members of Parliament know the limitations of the public finances.

I appeal for the issue to be resolved speedily through dialogue between Unison and the local authority employers, where the proper dialogue should be undertaken, and for my constituents’ education not to be disrupted any further just because their MSP happens to be the First Minister.


Arran Ferry Services

Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP)

On Tuesday, CalMac Ferries announced that the return of Arran’s resident ferry, the MV Caledonian Isles, was to be delayed again. Since it was taken out of service for its annual overhaul in January, the timescale for the vessel’s return has gone from early March to June, to August, to September, to October and to mid-November. That has greatly impacted Arran’s long-suffering people, businesses and visitors.

With no obvious progress as yet on the redevelopment of Ardrossan harbour, how will the Scottish Government and its agencies ensure that the ferry service to Arran—which is the busiest in the network—is reliable, robust and resilient, and one that islanders and visitors can have confidence in?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

I accept the points that Mr Gibson has made on behalf of his constituents in Arran. The position with the MV Caledonian Isles has been difficult. We thought that the vessel would come back into service several weeks ago—indeed, it returned from significant repairs in Birkenhead and we expected it to go back into service—but the issue that Mr Gibson raises has caused a delay to that.

The Cabinet Secretary for Transport is in active dialogue with CalMac to ensure that there is continuity of service. There has been extensive, protracted and very difficult dialogue about Ardrossan harbour—given the close attention that Mr Gibson has paid to the issue, he will know how difficult it has been. No lack of effort has been put into the dialogue—we have just not managed to reach agreement. We have managed to sustain a two-vessel service on the Ardrossan and Troon to Brodick routes over the period, and CalMac will endeavour to ensure that that remains the case in order to service Mr Gibson’s constituents. The Cabinet Secretary for Transport will keep him updated on developments.


Drumchapel Health Centre

Sandesh Gulhane (Glasgow) (Con)

I declare an interest as a practising national health service general practitioner. The Drumchapel health centre in my region of Glasgow houses five GP practices and serves one of the most deprived areas of Scotland. The population is rapidly increasing. Many patients have complex and multifaceted health issues, and many do not speak English. There is not enough room for core GP staff. The centre is unfit for purpose, which results in longer waits and widening inequalities. The staff I met are desperate for help, as the centre has been consistently overlooked for an upgrade. Will the First Minister agree to accompany me on a visit to the centre to see how badly the people of Drumchapel are being let down?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

I recognise the importance of access to GP services. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will be engaging on questions about improvements that can be delivered to the capital estate. I am sure that he will be happy to engage with Dr Gulhane on that question and ensure that the issues that he has put to me can be factored into the Government’s capital planning.


Sheku Bayoh Inquiry

Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)

The first stage of hearings in the public inquiry into the death of Sheku Bayoh has concluded. Sheku Bayoh’s family, who have shown grace and dignity over the long nine years since he died, are calling for the scope of the inquiry to be widened to include the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service’s decision not to prosecute. Lord Bracadale, the chair of the inquiry, has urged the Scottish Government to make a decision on the matter as soon as possible, but the family has already waited five weeks on what is a matter of urgency. When will the Scottish Government reach a decision, and does the First Minister recognise the family’s pleas so that they can have closure?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

I recognise the family’s desire for closure on the issue, and the Government established the public inquiry to enable that to be the case. The Deputy First Minister is fulfilling her statutory duties, which require her to consult extensively on any question of the terms of reference being revised. That work is under way, and a decision will be taken as soon as possible.


Scottish Fire and Rescue Service

Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)

The First Minister will be aware of recent reports that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is in a “deadly spiral of decline” that might lead to a loss of life. What is his response to those reports, and will he endeavour to outline how the SFRS and the Fire Brigades Union can transform the service and make it fit for the future?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service continues to deliver a high standard of service in order to meet its commitment to keep people in Scotland safe.

In this financial year, there was an overall increase of £29.3 million to SFRS’s budget, which is a substantial increase. The budget is now £79 million higher than it was in 2017-18. I do not agree with Maggie Chapman’s characterisation of the service. It has attracted investment, and it continues to perform well and to deliver safety and security to the population.

Where I do agree with Maggie Chapman is in relation to the pressure on public finances, which comes from the austerity agenda. I hope that the austerity agenda will come to an end, because, as the member knows, we have to live within the resources that are available to us. However, we should have confidence in a fire service that has more firefighters per head of population than any other in the United Kingdom, and that is well supported by the Government’s financial commitments.


Acorn Project (Investment)

Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)

Despite plenty of warm words from the new United Kingdom Labour Government, it has, much like its Tory predecessor, snubbed Scotland once again and declined to invest in the Acorn project on carbon capture. Does the First Minister share my concern about the UK Government’s continued failure to understand the energy sector in the north-east? Will he call on Keir Starmer to rethink and invest in Scotland’s just transition?

The First Minister (John Swinney)

The Acorn project and the Scottish cluster, which Kevin Stewart highlights to me, are vital for our just transition to net zero. The project is a significant strategic investment for Scotland and, I would add, for the United Kingdom. Therefore, I am very surprised that more progress has not been made on the Acorn project, when confirmation has been given for two projects south of the border and given how critical it is to our prospects.

As Parliament knows, I feel fundamentally misled on the project by the previous United Kingdom Government. I want to see urgent progress on it, and it is one of the issues that I will pursue in my discussions with the Prime Minister when I see him tomorrow.

That concludes First Minister’s question time.

12:46 Meeting suspended.  

12:47 On resuming—