Plenary, 04 Sep 2003

Meeting date: Thursday, September 4, 2003

Official Report 712KB pdf

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First Minister's Question Time

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Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister and what issues he intends to raise. (S2F-157)

I plan to meet the Prime Minister again later this month. When I meet him, I will be pleased to note and welcome our agreement to provide payments to those who contracted hepatitis C from faulty blood products.

I welcome the announcement that was made during the summer and I ask the First Minister to look sympathetically on extending compensation to cover people who, sadly, lost loved ones before compensation could be paid.

Last September, the First Minister launched the "One Scotland. Many Cultures" campaign. At that time, he said:

"We must … ensure that Scotland is a welcoming place for people of all cultures, nationalities, and backgrounds."

Why does that statement not extend to the children who are imprisoned at Dungavel?

The "One Scotland. Many Cultures" campaign, and all the related activities that backed it up, have been widely hailed in Scotland as a success, and rightly so. We want to ensure—not only for those who currently live in Scotland but for those who will visit Scotland and come to live and work here legally in future—that we have a country that is welcoming, that celebrates diversity and that recognises the massive contribution that diversity can make to the education and development of young people in particular.

This group of ministers and this devolved Government in Scotland have an excellent record in supporting the refugees and asylum seekers who live in our communities. The investments that we have made in recent years are exactly in tune with the aims and objectives of the "One Scotland. Many Cultures" campaign.

In that long answer, the First Minister did not condemn the imprisoning of children at Dungavel. Since Parliament last met, the churches, the Scottish Trades Union Congress and the Scottish Refugee Council have all condemned the practice of locking up children at Dungavel. HM inspectorate of prisons in England has condemned the practice of locking up children at Dungavel, as has HM Inspectorate of Education in England. Why will not the First Minister of Scotland condemn the practice of imprisoning children at Dungavel?

We are beginning to stray into reserved areas of policy.

I have no intention of doing that, as the Presiding Officer will be pleased to hear. However, I will make one very simple point. If a United Kingdom Government minister went to Mr Stewart Stevenson's constituency, had a look at the current conditions at Peterhead prison and, despite the changes and improvements that we are trying to make there, announced that the UK Government would like the prison to be closed, we would—despite the fact that some people on the SNP benches might occasionally agree with that minister—be rightly angry.

UK Government ministers should treat this Parliament and this devolved Government with respect and this devolved Government should treat them with respect. They have a legal responsibility for the operation of the Dungavel centre and they have a legal responsibility for dealing with people who are due to leave this country. It is right and proper that they should make those decisions.

I know that Mr Swinney supports it, but I do not support the implementation of a separate Scottish immigration policy and I do not support the creation of border and passport controls at Scottish borders with the rest of the UK. The Scottish National Party may laugh at that comment, but it reflects the theme that that party took up yesterday. SNP members should be honest and say that it is not their objective to look after children at Dungavel, but to create a separate Scottish immigration policy.

I point out to the First Minister that Dungavel is not in the south of England; it is in our own country and he is the First Minister of that country.

The First Minister said that the matter is nothing to do with him. I remind him of an answer that Malcolm Chisholm gave when he was Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care, in which he stated:

"the Scottish Parliament has a responsibility for a wide range of issues to ensure that the children of asylum seekers and refugees are treated in exactly the same way as any other children."—[Official Report, 14 December 2000; Vol 9, c 1057.]

Unless the First Minister has a proposal to lock up the children of Scotland, I do not think that the children of asylum seekers are being treated the same as the rest of the children in our country. Thirty-six children have been detained at Dungavel for longer than six weeks in the past year. How many more children will have to be locked up at Dungavel before the First Minister breaks his shameful silence on that disgraceful issue?

Not only has the Executive—the devolved Government in Scotland—provided more support to those in Scotland who have been granted refugee status than most other parts of the United Kingdom, but we have a proud record at the moment of turning round areas such as Sighthill in Glasgow, where there were serious community tensions. Others may have been there two years ago, but they soon departed when the matter went out of the headlines.

We have continued to deliver not only housing, but quality education, quality health services, child care and training for the adults concerned to ensure that not only refugees who have come to this country, but those who seek asylum—all those people, who live in Glasgow and throughout Scotland—have access to those services and have an opportunity to be welcomed in Scotland and to contribute to the community. The record of the devolved Government in Scotland in supporting and delivering services to asylum seekers and refugees in Scotland is one of which I am now, and will always remain, very proud.

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Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues he intends to raise. (S2F-158)

Mr McLetchie will be delighted, I am sure, to hear that I met the Secretary of State for Scotland earlier this week in Edinburgh at the first meeting of the Scottish euro preparations committee, and discussed a number of issues of importance including the planning and preparation that are under way in Scotland for future adoption of the single European currency.

I can conceive of no greater waste of time and money than the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland sitting in a euro preparations committee to abolish the pound and give the people of Scotland a currency that they do not want. There will be a time for the euro later.

I will reflect on the appalling stories that we read this morning about the rape of a baby girl and the sentence that was handed down in the court. I am sure that everyone in Scotland welcomes the fact that the Lord Advocate is considering an appeal against the lenient sentence that was delivered in that case. Does the First Minister agree that the public's anger and incomprehension at that sentence will be compounded by the fact that, as a result of the operation of automatic remission, the offender will be back on our streets two and a half years from now? Does the First Minister think that that is acceptable? Will he give a commitment to end automatic release and restore honesty to sentencing in our courts?

It would obviously be inappropriate for me to comment or imply comment on that individual case, particularly as the Lord Advocate has agreed to review the sentence with a view to deciding whether it is unduly lenient. That said, I am in no doubt whatever that people throughout Scotland want to see the sentence fit the crime—in particular in any case where the crime is evil and despicable—and that the sentence should mean more than it does at the moment, especially for offenders who have not been rehabilitated in our prisons. That means that we need to review not only the guidelines that should exist for sentencing in Scotland, but the way in which remission operates in our system.

That is why we have established a sentencing commission that will be led judicially, by Lord MacLean. The commission will be led by those who are primarily responsible for sentencing in this country, but it will include other interests. It will review not only remission and sentencing guidelines, but the application of bail.

As I have said before, in this country there is a crisis of confidence in the operation of our courts because of a relatively small number of cases that appear to be totally removed from public opinion and the administration of proper justice. I am determined to ensure that our courts apply the law consistently and that they deal properly with offenders. Our prisons should rehabilitate people, but our sentences should punish them and deter others from offending.

All of us look forward to the recommendations of the sentencing commission, to which the First Minister referred and which will be chaired by Lord MacLean. Of course, those recommendations will not be with us for some time.

With regard to automatic early release, the First Minister confuses two issues. Although the responsibility for determining sentences rightly lies with our judges, the responsibility for ensuring that those sentences are served should lie with the Scottish Executive and the Government in Scotland. People in Scotland are sick and tired of criminals getting out of jail early and want something to be done about that now. Why must we wait for a sentencing commission to report before we take action on the scandal of early release? Is not it the case that the commission could sit for years before it considers that issue?

I accept the rhetoric at the beginning of Mr McLetchie's question, but the key point was at the end of it. I have no doubt that dealing with remission from sentences in our prisons will be a first priority of the sentencing commission. The commission will need to deal with that issue and to make recommendations to ministers. Ministers will then make decisions to adapt the policy accordingly.

The current policy does not provide an incentive for those who serve short sentences and receive automatic remission. However, to change that policy and to make it work in practice requires a degree of sense and consistency across the system, which can be provided by the recommendations of an objective sentencing commission. The commission's remit will be clear and when it produces its recommendations, we will implement them very quickly.

When the First Minister next meets the Secretary of State for Scotland, will he take the opportunity to relay to him the anxiety of people in the north-east about the rumours relating to the future of the Highlanders regiment? Does he share my concern that targeting our local regiment yet again would be entirely wrong, especially given the impact of such a measure on recruitment and its knock-on economic effects on our local communities?

I was wondering when the member was going to reach the devolved issue. Clearly, we will want to consider any employment matters that have an impact on local areas in Scotland. There are currently many rumours about this and many other subjects. I am sure that in due course, when the facts are known, Mike Rumbles and the many other constituency MSPs who have genuine concerns about the matter will have an opportunity to raise them.

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Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S2F-150)

Next week the Cabinet will discuss further progress on the delivery of the partnership agreement.

The First Minister and the Cabinet will no doubt be aware of the advances that Scotland's wave-power industry is making. However, this week it was revealed that one company may sell its first commercial machines in Portugal, rather than Scotland, because the market tariffs that the Portuguese Government offers for wave-power projects are worth more than two to three times those that are available here under the more general renewables obligation (Scotland). Is the First Minister willing to examine that situation and to investigate how to make Scotland a more competitive market for products such as these, which are proving themselves and moving towards commercial application? It would be a scandal if Scotland were to miss out on reaping the environmental and employment rewards of this locally developed expertise.

I would be happy to take that issue up and to consider it further. I would also like to relay to the chamber my experience of a week ago in Aberdeen, where I launched the pilot study into the world's first—not just Scotland's first—offshore wind farm. The potential in the Beatrice field in the Moray firth to create enough renewable energy to provide for the needs of the city of Aberdeen is a significant development that will help not only to improve our environment and create jobs and investment in the north-east and north of Scotland, but to ensure that our Scottish economy can benefit from the application of that technology in the years to come. I want that to happen in relation to wave power in the same way as it should happen in relation to wind power.

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Police Powers (Young People)

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Executive's position is on the comments of the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland that there would be limited benefit in increasing police powers to disperse young people. (S2F-162)

We firmly believe there are gaps in current laws that mean that the police cannot deal effectively with gangs of young people. I am convinced that experiences at local level will be reflected in the outcome of our consultation.

I welcome the priority that is being accorded to combating antisocial behaviour. Does the First Minister expect curfews to be introduced as part of the antisocial behaviour measures?

Although the more general curfew that was implemented in the Hamilton area in recent years was resource intensive, the experience was positive. We need to find a solution to the problem that allows the police to move on groups of youths who are intimidating people and which also allows us to tackle the ringleaders of those groups rather than penalise all young people. In the action that we take against antisocial behaviour, youth crime and disorder, it is important to ensure that the vast majority of young people who are decent and law abiding and want to get on with their social lives in their communities have the opportunity to do so.

I believe that options such as electronic tagging, on which people are being consulted, would be more targeted and more likely to deal with the most serious offenders than a wider curfew, which would be resource intensive and might adversely impact on the social lives of a wider group of young people who might be extremely law abiding.

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Scottish National Theatre (Funding)

To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Executive will announce a long-term funding commitment to help establish a national theatre. (S2F-165)

We want a vibrant theatre sector in Scotland. That is why we have focused on strengthening regional theatres in the past year. We are committed to supporting a national theatre and the Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport will take that forward.

In the past, the Executive has budgeted for funding a national theatre company, only to renege subsequently on its promise. Will the First Minister accept that long-term funding requires long-term budgets and not end-of-year funding? Will he give a commitment to hold to long-term budgets?

The Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport will outline our commitment to the national theatre when we have finalised our proposals and decisions. It is important that we have a national theatre in Scotland, but I also think that we were right, this time last year, to invest the extra resource in the sustainability of our regional theatres. It would have been entirely pointless to create a national theatre infrastructure in Scotland at the same time as regional theatres were on the verge of closure. Securing the future of our regional theatres was vital at this time last year, which is why we made the decision to use the resources to that end. However, our decision at that time allows us now to reflect on the future provision of a national theatre.

It is important that members of Parliament are consistent in their policies and in the way in which they put them across. It is easy to make a slogan out of the call for a national theatre, but it is strange to do so if one does not support the provision of Government support for the arts. As recently as 2001, Mr Monteith said that cultural excellence develops best in an open society, free from the dead hand of the state and that

"the Government can no more pick winners than it can put the Bay City Rollers back at the top of the charts."—[Official Report, 2 September 1999; Vol 2, c 155.]

Mr Monteith might want to see the Bay City Rollers back at the top of the charts and he might want no Government funding for the arts; however, I want Government funding for the arts and a national theatre in Scotland. We will make an announcement in due course.

I must declare an interest in the matter.

Is the First Minister aware of the discrepancy between the shortfall in funding for the Scottish regional theatres compared with funding for regional theatres in England? Furthermore, in relation to planning for the national theatre, is he aware that what the creative artists of Scotland need is more investment in people? They do not need more consultancies or even more buildings; they need to receive directly more money to create.

The member's final point is a good one: we need to invest in the creativity of Scotland's theatres rather than in, as Mr Ballance put it, more buildings or consultancies. However, it is important that we record the significant investment in theatre provision that takes place in Scotland. I understand that public expenditure on theatre provision in Scotland is about 30 per cent higher than it is in England. Therefore, it is not surprising that any increase in England will appear to have a more radical effect than it appears to have in Scotland. Theatre provision is another area in which Scottish public spending is higher. We invest well in the provision of theatres throughout Scotland and we will continue to do so.