Plenary, 02 Oct 2008

Meeting date: Thursday, October 2, 2008

Official Report 774KB pdf

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First Minister's Question Time

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Engagements

To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-1057)

Later today I will have meetings to take forward the Government's programme for Scotland.

A few hours ago, along with many colleagues from the chamber, I met a large delegation of young people who were here to protest about the First Minister's proposal to stop 18 to 21-year-olds buying drink in a shop, while allowing them to drink in a pub or club. They think that the proposal is unfair, unworkable, ineffective and, frankly, daft. Will the First Minister listen to Scotland's young people and drop the idea?

The purpose of a consultation is to listen to a range of interested groups in Scottish society, and I welcome the contributions that young people have made to our consultation on proposals to tackle Scotland's relationship with alcohol—an issue that has not been faced or tackled for the past generation. However, we will have to come to our conclusions without the benefit of submissions from the Conservative party, the Liberal Democrats or the Labour Party, which presumably decided not to contribute because, although they seem to know what they are against, they have no idea what they are for.

We agree that Scotland has a problem with alcohol and, as parliamentarians, we want to debate in the Parliament what we should do about it. Labour wants an effective, mandatory proof-of-age scheme, tougher action on agents who buy drink for under-18s, and the removal of licences from those who are found selling to under-18s. We want strong enforcement of the existing legislation. The problem is that that debate is being drowned out by an idea that no one else wants. Will the First Minister drop an idea that no one agrees with so that we can start to explore actions that we can all get behind?

The only opinion sample that we have had on the proposal—the Young Scot poll—shows that one third of young people are in favour, one third against and one third are not sure. I suppose that those who are not sure will come to the other three parties and their non-submission to the consultation on facing the alcohol problem.

Iain Gray should at least acknowledge that there is substantial support in the community for firm action against alcohol abuse. It is all very well for him to say that he wants current legislation to be enforced; it is being enforced. What was the Labour Party doing during its 10 years in office that has allowed the problem to reach the scale that it has?

The First Minister is trying to hide the fact that he has not even convinced his youth wing, the ultra-loyal student nationalists—[Interruption.]

Order.

I beg your pardon, Presiding Officer. I meant to say the usually ultra-loyal student nationalists. He has not convinced his usually ultra-loyal Health and Sport Committee convener, Christine Grahame, either. She said on television that the proposal would alienate communities, traders and decent young people. He has not even convinced his cyber-nat midnight bloggers, and they would swallow anything. Will the First Minister listen to his own supporters and drop the idea?

The redoubtable Christine Grahame and the Federation of Student Nationalists have in common the fact that they bothered to submit evidence to the alcohol consultation, unlike Iain Gray.

Can we just have a look at the evidence on the ground from the six-month trial that has been running in Stenhousemuir, which finished just a couple of days ago? Iain Gray should address some of the evidence that the figures from that trial provide. The number of antisocial behaviour calls that were made in the Stenhousemuir area on Friday and Saturday evenings reduced by more than 40 per cent on the previous year, from 113 to 67. Crime is down—the number of cases of breach of the peace has gone down by 40 per cent, from 79 to 49, and the number of minor assaults has gone down from 51 to 37. That happened in an area in which there were no additional police resources for the period of the experiment.

As a Parliament, we should start to look seriously at some of the evidence that is emerging. We should do so not just because such work is in the interests of the general community. Given that, in the main, it is young people who are the victims of such crime, we should consider how we can support the whole community and generally tackle Scotland's relationship with alcohol. After a generation, proposals are finally being made to face down Scotland's relationship with the booze. Should not they be welcomed by the whole Parliament?

No one takes antisocial behaviour more seriously than our party. We must look seriously at the pilots, but the fact is that the validity of those statistics has been questioned by Professor Bird. Indeed, Chief Inspector Bob Beaton, who led the crackdowns in Stenhousemuir and Larbert, said:

"It's difficult to separate the different strands to say which have been most successful."

This week the First Minister made his Colemanballs debut in Private Eye:

"That is not just a legacy, it is there for the future",

as he said himself. If he keeps coming up with policies that are as daft as the one that we are discussing, Private Eye will have to rename the column "Salmondballs".

If the proposal were to go through, an 18-year-old could work in, run or even own an off-licence. They could sell drink in that off-licence all day, but at the end of the day the one thing that they could not do would be to walk round the counter and buy a drink for themselves in their own shop.

Because it would be shut.

It is a daft idea, which Parliament will reject tonight. Will the First Minister listen to Parliament and drop the idea?

I might have made my debut in Private Eye, but Iain Gray made his debut in The Sun newspaper yesterday. The interview started off:

"Labour chief Iain Gray is halfway through a very long and boring tale when I lose the will to live."

I had a fellow feeling for the Sun reporter as I listened to that last question.

The article goes on to quote Iain Gray as saying:

"‘My campaign team suggested I changed my name to something more dynamic like Danny Invincible, the Kilmarnock striker.'"

From now on, I will refer to Iain Gray as Invincible Iain Gray or perhaps Interesting Iain Gray.

Throughout the experiment areas, there has been great support for the clampdown on alcohol distribution. From the police through to the retail outlets that co-operated in the experiment, people have said what a success it has been. If Iain Gray wants to question and argue against every single proposal in the alcohol consultation, that is his right, but sooner rather than later, it will be a question not just of what the Labour Party did not do over 10 years in government, but of exactly what its proposals are for tackling Scotland's relationship with the booze.

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Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister. (S3F-1058)

I have no plans to meet the Prime Minister in the near future.

The First Minister's attempt to defend his proposed criminalisation of responsible young adults must be among the most bizarre that the Parliament has ever heard. Alcohol abuse can be dealt with by targeting underage drinking and law-breaking licensees. It is not necessary to create a new set of criminals—we just need to clamp down with the existing laws. Later today, and not for the first time, the Parliament will provide the common sense that is so patently lacking in the First Minister.

That brings me to another issue on which common sense has flown out of the window. In March this year, I asked the First Minister what the Government would do with the prisoners if any of our prisons were damaged or destroyed and could not be used. The First Minister told me:

"Contingency plans are in place."—[Official Report, 27 March 2008; c 7449.]

Will he tell us what they are?

Operational contingency plans are indeed in place. I remind Annabel Goldie that one of the first actions of the Government, almost immediately we came into office, was to sanction the building of three prisons in Scotland. That contrasts with 17 years of the Conservative Government, when not a single prison was built. Annabel Goldie should welcome the fact that this week we have seen the lowest recorded crime figures in Scotland for a quarter of a century. However, we also have the highest prison population in history in Scotland. Does she not at any stage think that there may be a mismatch between the two figures and that it is time for the Conservative party to consider the underlying causes of prison overcrowding, for which her party must take a great deal of responsibility?

The difference between the First Minister and me is that the Conservatives in government ensured that the prison population virtually matched prison capacity and put in place plans for a new prison in Kilmarnock. That is a far cry from the mess that the First Minister is in. We must deal with the crisis in our prisons that is here now, right in front of us. The First Minister wants to gloss over the crisis, but the chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service is clear about it. This week, he said:

"There is no contingency plan",

which, I presume, explains the lack of an answer from the First Minister to my question. The SPS chief executive continued:

"there is no spare capacity in the system to absorb a loss of accommodation."—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 30 September 2008; c 1142.]

He gave the chilling warning that the only option is an emergency release of prisoners. In other words, if an emergency hits one of our prisons and hundreds of places are lost, hundreds of prisoners will be released into the community. That is the First Minister's plan B and it is just not acceptable.

We need extra prison capacity now, as there is a current crisis and a threatening disaster. Will the First Minister join the Scottish Conservatives to find that extra capacity? That is a real plan B—a plan to keep prisoners in prison and to keep Scotland safe.

Annabel Goldie's memory should be as long as mine is on these matters, so she might remember that, during the Conservative term of office, the Scottish prison estate was in total and utter disarray, with confusion and riots in a number of establishments in Scotland. In addition to our immediately sanctioning three new prisons in the prison estate, increased capacity is coming on stream in Edinburgh, Perth, Glenochil and Polmont. Those are improvements within the rising prison budget. It would not have been possible to act more quickly on prison capacity than the Cabinet Secretary for Justice acted. We acted immediately on coming to office.

Even Annabel Goldie and the Conservatives should realise that, in a week in which we have seen the lowest recorded rates of crime in Scotland for 25 years but prison populations have reached another record level, ultimately and fundamentally we must find better disposals and a better way of dealing with crime than locking up people for short sentences. That is what the McLeish commission recommended and that is what any member of the Parliament with a look towards the future and how society deals with those matters should thoroughly and comprehensively support.

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Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-1059)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of great importance to the people of Scotland.

What discussions will the Scottish ministers host to prevent rail strikes next week?

We have no plans to interfere in the position of Network Rail and its trade unions. We ask both sides to sit down and negotiate a settlement to their difficulties without substantial inconvenience to passengers.

I think that the answer was none. Tens of thousands of people will suffer next week. I spoke to First ScotRail and Network Rail this morning and found that people face four days of travel chaos, with no service to Aberdeen or Inverness.

When it was in opposition, the SNP stood in this chamber and said that the Government had a responsibility to act; it had to knock heads together and it had to host talks. Now that the SNP is the Government, will it guarantee to host meetings before Tuesday? Have ministers knocked heads together? What is the First Minister's action plan to stop the strike? Is it anything to do with him?

As I recall—I thank him for reminding the chamber—Tavish Scott was the Minister for Transport when ScotRail was on strike. He must get out of the habit of believing that the role of Government is to intervene in the relationship between employers and trade unions in every case. It would be impossible to do so. The role of Government is to urge both sides in the industrial dispute to come to terms and not to inconvenience the travelling public. That should be supported across the chamber.

So when Mr Salmond's colleagues said last session that the Government had to knock heads together and host talks, I presume that they were talking absolute nonsense.

What was Tavish Scott's response? [Interruption.]

Order.

Did he intervene dramatically and solve the industrial situation? Is it not better at this point to ask the unions and the management to get together and avoid the industrial dispute? Instead, we hear about Tavish Scott's faulty memory and he asks this Administration to do something that he so manifestly failed to do when he was the responsible minister. That is rather like his forgetting to cut income tax in Scotland when he was in the Administration, but advocating it now that he is in opposition.

Six days before Christmas last year, a tragic loss of life occurred on the Clyde when a tug named the Flying Phantom capsized, resulting in the deaths of two of my constituents, Stephen Humphreys and Eric Blackley, and a third man, Robert Cameron.

The First Minister will know that the Marine Accident Investigation Branch listed a catalogue of failures in its report this week and it is clear that the families of the crewmen who died believe strongly that further matters need to be addressed.

The First Minister will appreciate, as I do, that the issues raised are both reserved and devolved. Does he agree that such constitutional matters should not prevent us from getting to the truth of the tragic events of 19 December? Does the First Minister also believe that the joint Stockline inquiry is a good example of both Governments being prepared to work together, with the support and trust of the families, to seek the truth?

Obviously I respect Duncan McNeil's question. Given my constituency, he will understand that I have particular interest in and sympathy for those involved in marine accidents. I have looked at the MAIB report, which raises some serious matters. I agree that the Stockline joint inquiry, which was initiated and supported in this chamber, is an excellent example of Governments working together but, in the first instance, full consideration of whether to take the issues to another inquiry is a matter for the law officers. I am sure that they are considering the matter.

I was interested in the First Minister's answer to Annabel Goldie in relation to the rising prison budget. Given the rising budget that the First Minister claims, will he kindly explain why £10 million is being taken from the prison estate budget next year in order to accelerate the affordable housing investment programme?

Because of the shape of the capital programmes, the prison budget is increasing from £441 million to £455 million to £491 million. Even in David McLetchie's world, I would call that an increasing budget and one that is necessary to fulfil the prison building programme committed to by this Administration. That is, of course, something that the previous Conservative Government so manifestly failed to do.

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Marine Energy

To ask the First Minister how marine energy developments in the Pentland Firth and at other locations around Scotland will contribute to sustainable development. (S3F-1077)

The Pentland Firth, combined with other tidal locations around Scotland, is estimated to have a capacity generation of more than 7.5GW—enough to power about 4 million homes. Our total marine renewable potential is estimated at 21.5GW. Harnessed, that potential would supply Scotland's power needs many times over. The potential benefits to the Scottish economy in terms of inward investment and employment opportunities in the engineering, manufacturing and offshore sectors are considerable. Tapping marine energy potential can boost our position as an energy exporter and as a leading green energy economy and is an important element in realising our goal of increased sustainable economic growth for all Scotland.

I know that members will want to welcome to our proceedings today Luis Alberto Moreno, who is president of the Inter-American Development Bank. He is here in Scotland with his team to see the tremendous potential of and export opportunities for this planet-saving technology and Scotland's world-leading role in it.

The First Minister has captured the excitement about the Pentland Firth's potential for Scotland. There is a wider European need for secure energy supplies. Will the First Minister ensure that the firth's tidal power, oil supply base and sea-transport hub features are all treated as one national development under the national planning framework for Scotland? Will the soon-to-be-published strategic transport projects review also treat as one high priority speedier rail, safer roads, enhanced harbours and an all-weather landing scheme for Wick airport, to achieve the full benefits of the Pentland Firth's clean power?

Yes, those matters are under consideration as part of the national strategic plan. I thoroughly agree with Rob Gibson's description of the excitement that is being generated around these projects. That excitement and commitment was certainly on display in Thurso earlier this week, when we talked about exactly those things. The potential of the renewables industry in Scotland is being upheld and the excitement is being generally shared, not least because this Administration has consented to 14 major renewables projects in Scotland. In the last year of the Labour-Liberal Administration, the total was one.

I welcome last week's proposals in relation to enhanced renewables obligation certificates for marine energy. However, does the First Minister accept that that will not help companies that are developing the technology and those at the early stages of production, such as the pioneering Pelamis Wave Power in my constituency? Will he consider urgently what help can be given to such companies, so that Scotland can develop into the leading marine energy player that we all want it to be?

The announcements that we have made give Scottish marine renewables a significant advantage not just over any other framework in the continent of Europe but over our colleagues south of the border. That is why Pelamis is now being deployed in Scotland. If Malcolm Chisholm remembers, under the previous Administration, Pelamis was a technology that originated in Scotland but was deployed in Portugal. It is now being deployed in Scottish waters. That joins this week's announcement of the world-record deployment of wave arrays in Scotland and of the biggest tidal power array to be developed and deployed in Scotland. In every one of those marine technologies, which could well dominate energy production over the course of this century, Scotland is indeed ruling the waves.

The First Minister is right to highlight the enormous potential benefit of marine energy. I, like Malcolm Chisholm, welcome the announcement by the Minister for Enterprise, Energy and Tourism on ROCs. I understand that the First Minister was busy claiming responsibility this week for coining the phrase "the Saudi Arabia of tidal energy" in relation to the Pentland Firth. Perhaps with slightly less hubris, will he now take responsibility for ending the uncertainty over the future of the wave and tidal energy scheme? Will he also agree to look favourably on any bid to ensure that the facilities at the European Marine Energy Centre in my constituency remain world leading and fit for purpose in this fast-changing industry?

The facilities are world leading and fit for purpose. We are thoroughly committed to them, as I said when I opened the tidal developments in Eday in the Orkney islands last year. Obviously, we are committed to them, as we are committed to the saltire prize, which is the world's largest prize for innovation in marine renewable technology. Not everything in the renewables array is positive. We still have challenges to meet.

I know that the local member will join me, the islands of Scotland, Scottish Power, Scottish and Southern Energy and Scottish Renewables in supporting the unanswerable case for ensuring that grid connections from our outlying areas are made on the basis of parity and do not discriminate against areas of maximum renewable power potential.

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Prison Overcrowding

To ask the First Minister, in light of the comments by the chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service that the record prison population of 8,137 is at a level that is "unsafe operationally and legally", what steps the Scottish Government will take to alleviate prison overcrowding. (S3F-1082)

On 23 and 24 August 2007, the Scottish Government announced that it would build new prisons at Bishopbriggs and Peterhead. That announcement meant that, after the years of prevarication by our predecessors, this Administration was delivering on this issue. We are investing a record £120 million each year in the prison estate and the first new prison will open at Addiewell in December.

We also understand that, at the same time that prison numbers are at a record level, crime itself is falling; indeed, that is exactly why we appointed the McLeish commission to take a fresh look at the problem. We agree with the commission's conclusion that we cannot build our way out of the overcrowding problems that this Government has inherited. Instead, we must get offenders out of the reoffending cycle and into paying back their debt to communities.

The evidence to the Justice Committee left members in no doubt that prison establishments are in serious trouble and are under severe pressure. This afternoon, the First Minister has wriggled out of his responsibility and passed the buck. However, the fact is that he is the head turnkey and has had that responsibility since May 2007.

Will the First Minister guarantee that he will dismiss the suggestion that we should build a fence around the open estate and send more prisoners to it? Will he provide additional resources to the Scottish Prison Service so that more prison officers can be employed to deal with the current crisis? Will he publish the emergency plans or at least provide some details of the discussions that he referred to in his earlier response to Annabel Goldie?

I do not think that it would be a good idea to publish the Prison Service's operational plans. I also note that Mrs Craigie's entire question contained not one proposal about how the Labour Party intends to deal with a problem that it created.

I repeat that this Government acted as quickly as it could to increase capacity in the prison estate. The Labour Party might not realise this, but it takes a few years to build a prison in Scotland. Perhaps if Labour had started these projects when it was in office, the prisons might now be completed and available.

Of course, this is not the first time that a Justice Committee has taken evidence on prisons. On 14 December 1999, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee took evidence from the then Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice, who had to explain why he had taken £13 million out of the Prison Service budget. Perhaps if, like us, previous Administrations had put money into prisons instead of taking it out, we would have the capacity to deal with the immediate crisis.

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Student Support

To ask the First Minister how the Scottish Government is supporting students with care responsibilities for children. (S3F-1060)

The Scottish Government supports students with care responsibilities for children through support for tuition fees and living costs. Lone parent higher education students are also supported through the lone parents grant and the lone parents child care grant. Moreover, for higher education students, we have allocated £16 million of discretionary funds, more than £4.7 million of which is for child care funds. Finally, for further education students in colleges, the Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding Council has allocated, for the academic year 2008-09, £8.3 million towards child care funding, which represents a 9.6 per cent year-on-year increase from the previous year.

I am sure that the First Minister recognises that access to further and then to higher education is a very good way for single parents to get out of poverty. However, there appear to be anomalies in the funding criteria for students who take higher education courses in FE colleges. Does the First Minister agree that we need to review the allocation of these funds and that it might help colleges if they were allocated some Scottish Student Awards Agency funding to take account of circumstances on the ground?

I will carefully consider Hugh O'Donnell's suggestions, but I hope that he will see from the measures that I spelled out in my reply to his first question that the Government is already acting to support students with care responsibilities for children. It is acting in a comprehensive fashion with a number of measures that will be to the great benefit of those important students in our educational framework.

Will the First Minister join me in welcoming Heather Dunk to her post as the new principal of Kilmarnock College, which was the subject of inaccurate and misleading statements in the press at the weekend? Does he agree that those who use Kilmarnock College and its students for personal publicity succeed only in damaging its reputation and should be rebuked by the college and the Parliament?

I have seen a statement from the principal of Kilmarnock College that firmly makes those points. It points out that

"the … management team at Kilmarnock College is in discussion with a number of other colleges on the allocation of student funds … to ensure the fairest allocation of funds, value for money for the public purse and the most effective and high quality provision of childcare services".

The principal's letter is comprehensive in answering the charges that have been made.

Meeting suspended until 14:15.

On resuming—