Plenary, 01 Jul 2004

Meeting date: Thursday, July 1, 2004

Official Report 691KB pdf

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First Minister's Question Time

This will be the last First Minister's question time in the Church of Scotland Assembly Hall.

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Cabinet (Meetings)

I am sorry for the delay, Presiding Officer. I was just checking that Mr McAveety was in his place.

For the 83rd and last time, I ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S2F-970)

I hazard a guess that the First Minister will say that he will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland. [Laughter.]

I was going to say that Cabinet will meet during the summer recess to agree budgets for the next three years—and to discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

I think that everyone will join me in wishing Mr Swinney very well. I assume that, if everything goes well inside the Scottish National Party during the summer, this will be Mr Swinney's last First Minister's question time—at least for a while. I wish him well and I hope that when he is free from the constraints of being the leader of the Opposition he will occasionally find time to join me in working for Scotland. I hope that we will share ideas as well as debates and I genuinely hope that he and his wife have an enjoyable and relaxing summer. [Applause.]

I thank the First Minister for his kind remarks and good wishes. I assure him that I intend to have a restful summer—I hope that it will be a great deal more restful than his happens to be and I am sure that it will be. I assure him that I am very committed at all times to working for Scotland.

The First Minister made a statement this morning about the promotion of Scotland, which I warmly welcome. He said:

"We will make greater use of Scotland's flag. We will fly our ancient flag with pride. The Saltire unites Scots across the world. It is our national symbol, one that transcends politics."

I very much agree with his remarks.

The weekend press reported the First Minister as saying that he wanted the saltire to fly at 500 locations around the world. In a spirit of consensus, will the First Minister add two locations to the list: the United Nations; and the European Union?

Should we ever be fortunate enough to organise receptions at the United Nations, I would be happy to make a special request on those occasions. As Mr Swinney knows, the great benefit of devolution to Scotland is, of course, not only that we can promote our national flag and our national interests in Scotland, but that we can share the strength of the United Kingdom, too. Of course, inside Europe we fly our flag in the best possible way, with an excellent office at the heart of Brussels, where we represent Scotland's interests very well, as I am sure that Mr Swinney would agree.

I hear what the First Minister says, but, not for the first time, he does not go as far in his answer as I would dearly love him to go. The SNP has given a warm welcome to a variety of Government initiatives over the years, such as Scotland the Brand, which was launched by Donald Dewar in 1997, the Scottish international forum, which was launched by Jim Wallace in 2002 and the ministerial group to explore the promotion of Scotland abroad that was set up by Iain Gray in 2002. However, does the First Minister agree that the best way to promote our country would be to promote Scotland as a full member of the international community?

Devolution gives us the benefits of the best of both worlds. We have a unique opportunity in Scotland to promote our country—I will return to that in a second—and we have the benefit of the influence that the UK gives us, both in Europe and in the United Nations, where the UK clearly continues to have a major impact. We have the opportunity through devolution—it is five years to the day since the official opening of this Parliament—to promote our country across the world and to do that more effectively than we have done in the past, using not just symbols but real substance to describe a modern Scotland that has dynamic cities, modern companies, great people, a fantastic landscape and a fantastic future ahead of it.

I hope that Mr Swinney, the members of the Scottish nationalist party and whoever the new leader might be will join us to ensure that, when we promote Scotland abroad, we do so in as united a fashion as possible.

The First Minister mentioned the benefits of United Kingdom representation. Let me remind him of something else that he said this morning:

"The predominant image of Scotland is a mythical one. Castles, glens, mist and mountains."

He went on to say:

"These perceptions of Scotland have become entrenched."

They certainly have become entrenched. The British embassy in Washington promotes Scotland in the following terms:

"Edinburgh is famous for its Castle. Our character is synonymous with the kilt, haggis and the Loch Ness Monster"—

whatever that happens to mean. Is not that precisely the image that we are trying to get away from, but which the United Kingdom Government is actively promoting on our behalf?

I do not doubt the First Minister's patriotism or commitment to Scotland. We have all witnessed the style and aplomb with which he wears the national dress of our country. However, is it not the logic and substance of the argument that he has advanced this morning that we in Scotland should not leave it to others to speak for us, but should speak for ourselves?

We in Scotland do speak for ourselves, and we choose to do so not just ourselves but by using the strength, might, power and influence of the United Kingdom to assist us in our cause. We do that because it gives us a unique influence around the world. It gives us the opportunity not just to utilise the resources of Britain internationally, in Washington and elsewhere, but to establish, as we have done in Washington, our own Scottish office in the embassy to promote Scotland and Scottish businesses and interests.

We have another unique selling point, which transcends the historical image of Scotland—the image of "Braveheart", the mountains, the mist and the myths—and which is relevant to modern Scotland, our companies, our cities and the events that we host: the people of Scotland. Ultimately, the people of Scotland—who chose devolution and who chose to create this Parliament five years ago—are the abiding image of both modern Scotland and traditional Scotland. If we use the image of our people, Scotland will be even more warmly welcomed across the world in years to come.

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Prime Minister (Meetings)

I, too, take the opportunity to acknowledge, on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives, Mr Swinney's final appearance as leader of his party. It is an onerous position, and I make it clear at this point that my leader is away only temporarily. We all wish Mr Swinney a happy and restful future and contentment in whatever he decides to do.

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister and what issues he intends to raise. (S2F-969)

I welcome Miss Goldie to First Minister's question time. I look forward to welcoming other women to First Minister's questions in September. Whether it is Roseanna Cunningham or Nicola Sturgeon, I look forward to that in due course. [Interruption.] I am not sure that I would welcome it quite so much if it was Alex Neil, but let us wait and see what happens.

Having occasionally described Mr Swinney as the temporary leader of the permanent Opposition, I hope that I am not necessarily welcoming Miss Goldie as the temporary leader of the almost real Opposition.

The First Minister has not answered my question. I had anticipated that what he might say would probably be along the lines of "At some point in the near future, when matters of relevance will be discussed." Perhaps when the happy encounter takes place, the First Minister might like to discuss with the Prime Minister efficiencies in government. Last week, the Minister for Finance and Public Services, Mr Kerr, told Parliament that the Executive intended

"to attack waste, bureaucracy and duplication in Scotland's public sector."—[Official Report, 24 June 2004; c 9577.]

Does the First Minister really believe that spending £300,000 to establish that the saltire is Scotland's best promotional symbol represents good value for money?

If that was the case, it would be very silly indeed. No one in the Executive or anywhere else has spent money to establish that the saltire is Scotland's national flag. However, in an age in which international marketing and international image are so important for countries as well as companies, it is important that we research our image and that, in making decisions about our place on the international stage, we conduct ourselves in a way that is as informed as possible. We have conducted research and I have outlined this morning the outcome of that research and the programme of immediate action that we will take to improve Scotland's international image. When such actions take place and that image improves, our investment in research will have been well made.

We all laud the effective and successful marketing of Scotland—nobody would disagree that that should be done. However, the problem is that every Scot in the land could have told the First Minister that the saltire would be a recognisable symbol and nobody would have charged a brass farthing for the privilege of doing so.

Is not what we are discussing part of a wider problem? Last week, Mr Kerr promised us that his efficiency review would save £1 billion, but then—bizarrely and incredibly—he denied that there had been any significant waste in the previous five years. The First Minister then chipped in and told us that the public sector was too big, but that he would not cut it. Will the First Minister now give us the definitive Executive position? Does he, like other parties in the chamber, believe in big government and small people, or does he, like the Conservatives, believe in small government and big people?

I believe in government that is the right size, that is effective and that makes a difference. The Government has a role in investing in infrastructure to boost the work of private companies and to grow our economy, in providing key public services—sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly—and in establishing leadership for the country, which is what we have tried to establish this morning with the launch of our initiative to promote Scotland's international image.

In the past five years, there has been increased investment in our public services in Scotland, which has improved results in our schools, reduced deaths from heart disease, improved our transport infrastructure and increased the use of public transport, while unemployment and poverty have gone down. The attack on and the clear-up of recorded crime have improved. Such investments have been well made, but after five years of devolution, now is the right time to review budgets to ensure that we are spending money as efficiently as possible and to reallocate resources for further investments that can improve the quality of life and economic growth in Scotland.

The First Minister is an expert at one thing—he is a master of bluster. However, even he has eclipsed his best efforts. He is out of touch and his statements are utterly at variance with reality.

On Monday, the First Minister told the Fraser of Allander Institute that

"Scotland was a place of big ideas in the past."

The problem is that neither he nor his Government has any big ideas for the future. When I say big ideas, I am not talking about flying a saltire in Salzburg, but about really big ideas, like those that are offered by my party: lowering business rates; investing in roads and transport—which the business community is crying out for; devolving power to teachers, nurses and doctors; and giving parents and patients the right to choose in schooling and health care. I invite the First Minister to endorse such policies today so that he can really start delivering for Scotland.

As most of us learned at an early stage, quality is as important as quantity. Big ideas are important, but the quality and impact of those ideas are also important. The Parliament should never adopt big ideas that would cause chaos in the classroom, run down our national health service, divert essential resources into subsidising people who can afford to pay for their operations and run down the investment in infrastructure that is essential for growing Scotland's economy. The big ideas that the Parliament should adopt are: reversing Scotland's population decline by attracting fresh talent to this country; promoting Scotland's international image more effectively and making our mark on the international stage; reforming our public services—not only in education and in health, but in criminal justice and in other areas; building volunteering in our communities, which Margaret Curran spoke about yesterday; and tackling antisocial behaviour and putting respect back at the heart of our neighbourhoods.

That is the kind of Scotland that we are trying to create, those are the big ideas that make a real difference and those are the reasons why the people of Scotland voted for devolution and why the Parliament was created, five years ago. In the autumn, the Parliament will have the opportunity to move on, to live up to those dreams and to make them happen for Scotland.

There is one constituency question from Mr Duncan McNeil.

As the First Minister is aware, Argyll and Clyde NHS Board is reverting to type and is once again seeking to deal with the undoubted difficulties that face the national health service throughout the country by centralising everything in sight. When he next meets the Prime Minister, will the First Minister take time to discuss how the Westminster Government is meeting those challenges and what can be done to find a better way forward than the deeply unpopular and questionable plans that are currently being presented in places such as Argyll and Clyde?

I discuss such matters with the Prime Minister regularly; however, I am keen that we in Scotland should devise our own solutions for our own circumstances. We need to ensure that our health service performs as effectively as possible, with the best possible technology and in the best locations. As many services as possible must be delivered locally, too. Although changes are taking place in health technology and the provision of health services, which require centres of excellence to be established, there is also a pressing need and demand in our local communities to have services delivered as locally and humanly as possible. Getting the right balance, not just in Argyll and Clyde but elsewhere in Scotland, is the aim of the Executive.

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Cabinet (Meetings)

I invite the First Minister, on behalf of the whole Parliament, to send our deepest condolences to Rose and George Gentle over the tragic loss of their son on Monday in Iraq.

To ask the First Minister what the top priority will be for discussion at the next Cabinet meeting. (S2F-985)

I express my deep condolences not just to the family of the young man who was killed in Iraq this week, but to the families of others who have been killed not just in Iraq but serving our forces elsewhere in the world in recent times. The Parliament does not have responsibility for defence, but I hope that it has a strong loyalty to those from Scotland who serve our armed forces.

I repeat my earlier answer to Mr Swinney about the next meeting of the Cabinet.

I hope that social exclusion will be at the top of the agenda of the next Cabinet meeting. It is a sad reality that, after five years of the Scottish Parliament, far too many Scots are still socially excluded through low pay, poverty and ill health. Does the First Minister agree that the Executive has not done enough to tackle social exclusion? Further, does he agree that, given the fact that £450 million of public money has been spent on building the politicians' palace at Holyrood, it would be completely unacceptable and socially exclusive to charge individuals for tours of the Scottish Parliament?

The policy on the operational use of the new building is a matter that the Presiding Officer rightly and carefully is protecting for the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body—it is devolved to the corporate body—and I do not intend to interfere in that or to express too many opinions on the corporate body's decisions.

Five years on, we have made a dramatic difference to tackling poverty in Scotland through a range of programmes, not least in partnership with our colleagues at Westminster, through which targeted action is making a real difference in tens of thousands of homes. For example, our programmes to tackle fuel poverty in Scotland have been particularly effective and are admired elsewhere. Not just in the past five years, but in the seven years since 1997, we have seen in Scotland 170,000 older people lifted from poverty; 210, 000 children lifted from poverty; and a total of 540,000 individuals lifted out of poverty. I believe that the Parliament can be proud of that achievement; however, it is only a start and we must build on it.

I actually asked the First Minister for his opinion on this matter. Does he agree that we should charge the public to see a building that they have already spent £450 million on? Does he agree that doing so would socially exclude the very people we should be trying to include? Does he agree that our new Scottish Parliament building should open its arms to and welcome all our citizens, or does he support the idea of charging them for a building that they have already paid for?

Before the First Minister responds, I should say that the matter is quite rightly for me and the SPCB. There is of course no charge for the basic democratic process of people coming to committees and the chamber and seeing their members. Instead, charging will be made exclusively for long architectural tours.

If you wish to respond to the question, First Minister, on you go.

I do not intend to interfere in the SPCB's decisions or to express opinions about them at this time. However, I will say that people in my constituency and those I meet across Scotland who live on low incomes, with ill health and in a poor environment and who are concerned about the educational opportunities that are available for their children want me as the First Minister to address issues such as providing those educational opportunities, providing better health services and providing opportunities to get out of poverty, to get jobs, to get a decent income for them and their families and to live in decent housing. I say to Mr Sheridan that I face those challenges day in, day out. I am prepared to concentrate on them and I hope that he is prepared to do so as well.

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Child Protection Services

To ask the First Minister how the Bichard inquiry will influence any reform of child protection services in Scotland and what role Scottish police forces will play in facilitating, or advising on, reforms in England and Wales. (S2F-972)

Although the Bichard inquiry report compares the existing system in Scotland favourably with that in England and Wales, we cannot be complacent about child protection. In particular, we need to ensure that we are able to share information across borders to protect children and young people. We will work with colleagues in England and Wales to achieve that, and Scottish police forces will be actively involved in those deliberations.

I very much welcome the fact that the Bichard report held Scotland up as a model of exchanging information between police forces. However, I agree with the First Minister that there is no room for complacency as far as our children's safety is concerned.

Is the First Minister aware of concerns about Disclosure Scotland's efficiency and will he inform us of any action that is in hand to address those problems?

I am aware of those concerns. Indeed, I discussed them yesterday with representatives of the Guide Association Scotland at an event at Holyrood. A number of professional and voluntary organisations and groups across Scotland are concerned about the situation with Disclosure Scotland and we have recently taken action to improve the efficiency of the service. Additional staff have been engaged to work on processing and the information technology provider has been asked to improve the functioning of the systems. I am told that, as a result, the average processing time for correctly completed applications in the week ending 27 June was 13 days.

I am aware that individuals and groups are particularly concerned that, when relatively minor things go wrong in the completion of application forms, they lead to very long delays in processing the forms. The Minister for Justice and other ministers are currently discussing with Disclosure Scotland and others how to tackle that problem.

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Scotland (Overseas Promotion)

To ask the First Minister whether he intends to introduce any new measures to promote Scotland overseas. (S2F-982)

Mr Lochhead will be delighted to hear that today I have announced a package of measures to improve Scotland's international image, which are the outcome of research into attitudes towards and knowledge of Scotland. Those measures include introducing new promotional materials and visual images; utilising Foreign and Commonwealth Office posts and British Council offices across the world to develop our international networks further; and building relationships with key international media outlets and bringing them to Scotland so that they can see for themselves what Scotland has to offer.

I flag up to the First Minister that I warmly welcome his support for the saltire, which I know he will want to ensure flies as the flag at the new Holyrood building when we move in very soon.

I ask the First Minister to acknowledge that, although it is important that we investigate how Scotland is perceived overseas, the key to success is how we actively promote that image. Is he aware not only that we are missing out on the opportunities enjoyed by independent countries, but that many people feel that we are not punching our weight even as a devolved country? We must bear in mind the fact that the Flemish, for example, have 77 distinct offices overseas to promote themselves. Does the First Minister envision a greater presence for Scotland overseas, so that we can capitalise on the enormous good will that exists for Scotland internationally, as is identified in the Executive's research that was published this morning?

The Flemish have a devolved Government and they promote themselves effectively overseas. They do not need to separate themselves from the rest of Belgium to achieve that, but of course that is a decision entirely for them.

I hope that in putting forward his ambitions for the promotion of Scotland, Mr Lochhead will agree that research is important. I notice that he showed a lack of ambition on that front earlier in the week when he criticised the fact that the Executive had spent money on the research. I hope that the publication of the research today and of the actions that we have outlined, which will be immediate, will make a significant difference. I hope that we can build more of a cross-party consensus on the effort and that we can work together to achieve the goal. If we do that, although we might have debates about the constitutional status of Scotland, I hope that we will be able to ensure that people throughout the world see modern Scotland for what it is: a successful, thriving country that is doing very well with a devolved Scottish Parliament.

Is the First Minister happy that £300,000 has been spent to tell the people of Scotland that their national flag is an important symbol of their country? Will he be kind enough to tell us why he has scrapped Scotland the Brand, which was another important symbol in promoting Scotland?

We have not scrapped Scotland the Brand and we have not spent £300,000 identifying that the St Andrew's cross is Scotland's national flag.

Another thing that I said at my press conference this morning was that I believe that all members of the Parliament—including me, but everyone else too—have a duty and a responsibility come September to rise to the occasion in the new building and to raise the level of debate. I hope that Mr McGrigor will be one of those involved in that.

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Genetically Modified Crops

To ask the First Minister whether trials of genetically modified crops were carried out under safety guidelines issued by the supply chain initiative on modified agricultural crops. (S2F-988)

The guidelines issued by the supply chain initiative on modified agricultural crops were developed by the industry for farmers participating in farm-scale evaluations. The guidelines set out proposed separation distances between GM and non-GM crops and are based on internationally recognised criteria for ensuring high purity in seed production. Safety is dealt with separately under the conditions of consent, which are enforced by the GM inspectorate.

Perhaps in answering his last question in this chamber, the First Minister will do just that and answer the question. There has been a series of conflicting accounts on whether the GM trials were carried out using safety guidelines. Ross Finnie told the Parliament that the safety guidelines would apply to GM trials, but the head of his GM team said on oath that safety guidelines did not apply to GM trials in Scotland, and a farmer who conducted one of the trials admitted on oath that he did not even know that the guidelines existed. Is not it the case that the Executive's management of the GM crop trials was a mess? Will the First Minister agree to put the record straight on how all the GM trials in Scotland were carried out, by releasing the full details of the licences and the safety guidelines used?

The last point is a point of detail, the answer to which Mr Finnie will know much better than I do. I reinforce the point that I made in my earlier answer, which is that the guidelines that were issued by the supply chain initiative on modified agricultural crops were developed by the industry itself for farmers who participate in farm-scale evaluations. They are separate from the safety conditions of consent that are enforced by the GM inspectorate. Perhaps Mr Ruskell is mixing the two issues—I presume not deliberately. I would be happy to ensure that he receives full clarification from the ministers concerned.