Health Committee, 15 Jun 2004

Meeting date: Tuesday, June 15, 2004

Official Report 284KB pdf

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Prohibition of Smoking in Regulated Areas (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I omitted to welcome to the committee Jamie Stone MSP, Nanette Milne MSP and Stewart Maxwell MSP, who is here for his bill. We cannot discuss the bill without Stewart in train. I welcome the three members to the meeting.

We move on to the first panel of witnesses, who will give evidence on the Prohibition of Smoking in Regulated Areas (Scotland) Bill. I welcome to the meeting Shona Hogg, Simon Hunter and Lea Tsui who attend Firrhill High School. I hope that I have pronounced that last name properly.

No. It is pronounced "Chu".

I also welcome to the meeting Findlay Masson, Callum McPherson and Claire Repper, who are pupils at Mile-End School in Aberdeen. I refer members to the papers that accompany this item, which contain submissions from the two schools.

Perhaps it would be best if one pupil from either school answered members' questions. Others can respond if they feel that they want to say something different. Please do not feel that you have to say something.

Some of the pupils from Mile-End School said that the bill would be

"more trouble than it's worth".

That is a good way of putting it. Can you explain why they thought that?

Some pupils thought that the bill would be pointless because many more policemen would have to be employed to find out whether people were smoking in bars and restaurants, or because it would give power to barmen, who might be a bit scared of telling big men to stop smoking. We cannot risk people in the catering industry being harmed.

Is that the consensus of pupils in the school? What about the pupils at Firrhill High School?

If the measures were brought in, it would be like what happened when the euro was introduced. There might be some conflict at the beginning, but people would get used to this way of life as time went on.

So you support the bill.

Yes.

Although most pupils appear to be in favour of the bill, I understand that some voted against it. Could you tell the committee some of the other reasons why pupils voted against the bill?

Some pupils thought that if the bill were passed people would waste more police time with complaints that someone had been smoking. There would also be less cash raised from tax on cigarettes. As a result, other taxes would have to be raised and the party that raised them would get fewer votes at elections.

Do you think that those arguments are good?

I thought that they were fairly good, but that the bill had more positive aspects.

So the good things about the bill outweigh the problems that it might cause.

Yes.

Does anyone else want to comment? After all, you have come along so you might as well speak.

We thought that banning smoking in public places would benefit people's health. As a result, the national health service would spend less money on treating lung, mouth and other cancers that come about because of passive smoking, which would make up for the smaller amounts of money that might be raised from tax on cigarettes.

So, again, the positive outcomes would outweigh any potential problems.

Yes.

Do you agree that smoking kills people who smoke cigarettes and harms other people who breathe in that smoke? As a result, do we not have to protect people from the harmful effects of that smoke?

I will start with Firrhill High School this time.

Passive smoking definitely kills people. We did research and we found out that being in a smoky environment for just half an hour can reduce the blood flow to the heart. That was quite a scary thing to read and it made us take a step back. If that is what happens to adults, what must it do to wee children and pregnant women? The smoke that pregnant women breathe in will go directly to their unborn baby. That does not sound right. It is unjust that someone should suffer for what someone else has done.

Do we not have a duty to protect people?

Yes. We can always take actions to help to protect other people from illnesses.

Having listened to the comments from the Firrhill High School students, I want to ask about smoking at home. You have been very strong on the effects that smoking has on a range of people. Do you think that the bill goes far enough or should it cover other areas? Should people have some freedoms?

In private homes, people should make their own choice and it should be up to the family. In a public place, not everyone can get their say, whereas families in private households can make their own decision on whether to allow smoking in the house.

Does Mile-End School have any views on that?

As the people from Firrhill said, it should be the family's view. If the whole family smokes, that might be their choice. If they want to quit and other people are smoking, they have to fight back against other smokers in the house.

Would the bill lead to more people giving up smoking?

It might not lead to more people giving up, but fewer people might start smoking because of the inconvenience that would be caused if the bill was passed in full. People who already smoke might also cut down on the amount that they smoke each day.

When our teacher and his wife went to California, where smoking in public has been banned, they found that finding somewhere to smoke was such an inconvenience that they stopped smoking.

The bill might also prevent peer pressure. If everyone is smoking on a work staff night out, you might feel a wee bit encouraged to smoke. As the girl from Mile-End said, if smoking was banned in public places, that might prevent people from starting to smoke.

We wrote to Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger but he has not replied yet. When he does, I will keep the autograph.

If the bill as drafted becomes law, how should those who ignore it be punished?

There should be a fine of £50. If people are caught breaking it several times, the fine should be higher—perhaps £200 or more.

Would that be sufficient to stop people doing it again?

Yes, probably.

I think that we agree with that.

Bearing it in mind that the bill talks about prohibiting smoking in areas where food is served, do you think that there are other areas in which smoking should be banned?

Maybe in parks. Many people like to go out to the park for fresh air. That is also where people usually start smoking. Also, if there are animals about, they might get killed.

It should be banned in pubs and clubs. They are enclosed areas and that makes passive smoking worse.

You would like the ban to go further and to cover not just areas where food is served.

Yes.

Some people have a different view to that which is expressed in Stewart Maxwell's bill. They think that the provision of more non-smoking areas would be better than a ban on smoking. What is your view on that?

I do not think that that is sensible or that it would work. If an enclosed space has a non-smoking area and a smoking area, the air circulates into the non-smoking area. If the two areas are close and the division is not very effective, people who are near the border of the non-smoking area are affected just as much as they would be if they were in the smoking area.

If only 15 per cent of the smoke from a cigarette goes into the smoker's lungs, 85 per cent of it goes into the air for the rest of us to breathe. In an enclosed restaurant, the circulation of the air means that that smoke will surely do us much more harm.

Do you think that existing ventilation systems in the parts of public places where smoking is allowed work well enough?

I do not think that they do because in enclosed areas where many people are smoking, such as pubs and clubs, the smoke is all around. The smoke circulates and it is so thick that it is nearly impossible to breathe.

We have heard what you have said about passive smoking. What other effects do you think that people smoking in public places has on the people around them? Perhaps I can clarify my question by giving you a few clues. I am talking about runny eyes, the smell and the effect on people who are wearing contact lenses, for example. Apart from those suggestions, what are the other effects of people smoking in public places?

The smoke from someone who is smoking nearby can sometimes be so thick that people can choke on it.

If people are fined for smoking in public places, what do you think that we should do with the money? Do you have any good ideas about that?

It would be good to use it to help people who were trying to stop smoking and to educate young people so that they would not smoke.

Do you think that signs should be put up in places in which smoking is not allowed? If you think that they should be, what would you put on those signs?

There should be signs on all doors that say, underneath the no-smoking sign, "Smoking is prohibited here—that is the law", for example. At our school, we have pupils of many different nationalities who might not be able to read English, so there should be clear signs on doors and in places where smokers would go, such as the corners of rooms.

Are you saying that the signs should be in different languages?

Yes.

That is interesting.

If there is a ban, I think that there should be signs that say where people are allowed to smoke rather than signs that say where they are not allowed to smoke. That would mean that smoking would be banned everywhere except in those places where signs allowed it. People who wanted to smoke would go to those places to smoke instead of smoking in public places.

There is great concern that, once again, many young people are starting to smoke. Many people such as me have stopped smoking, but another generation is starting to smoke. Do you think that banning smoking in places where food is served would have any effect on young people starting to smoke?

I think that it would have an impact. If young kids who are out with their parents see people smoking in restaurants, they think that smoking is normal. However, if they do not get used to seeing people smoking around them as they grow up, it will become second nature for them not to smoke.

I agree with the pupil from Firrhill: kids would not see cigarettes as much if there was a ban. My parents went to Ireland, where there is a ban, but they saw cigarettes on the ground where people had been smoking outside, so a ban might not have such an effect. Parents who smoke might stop smoking, so fewer children might copy their parents and start smoking.

Why do young people start to smoke? If there is one thing that makes them start to smoke, what is it?

I do not think that we can narrow it down to one thing; many different things can make a young person want to smoke. It can come down to whether someone's parents smoke, which would make them used to a smoky environment. There is peer pressure, too. The big thing is to be cool and to be like your friends; young people do not want to be the odd one out so they can be pressured into doing things that they do not really want to do.

Will the bill help to reduce that pressure?

Yes.

What do the Mile-End pupils think about that? Perhaps you know young people who smoke. Why do they start to smoke?

The biggest reason nowadays is probably peer pressure, but as Lea Tsui said, you cannot narrow it down.

Members have run out of questions, so I invite Stewart Maxwell—who introduced the bill that we are discussing—to ask questions.

I am responsible for the bill and I am pleased that Firrhill High School lodged a petition and that Mile-End School had a debate about smoking in public places. It is good news that young people are getting involved in the Parliament and its processes.

I will pick up on the question that Shona Robison asked. Is smoking viewed as cool by young people and children? Lea Tsui used the word "cool". Do young people think that smoking makes them look more grown up?

I think that they do. We see celebrities smoking on television and lots of people look up to celebrities. If smoking was banned in public places, we would see that less and less, which might make people think.

I think that smoking makes people look immature. There are so many chemicals in cigarettes—some contain stuff that is used to preserve dead people or to make weapons of mass destruction, toilet cleaner or nail varnish remover.

Do young people think that smoking is cool because they see people smoking everywhere they go, so smoking is regarded as quite normal in our society in Scotland? If smoking was banned, it would be de-normalised—I hate to use that word—and it would no longer be a cultural norm to see smoking everywhere. Would that make children less likely to think that smoking was an adult thing to do and therefore make them less likely to start smoking?

It has been proved that Scotland has one of the worst rates of coronary heart disease, which can be caused by smoking. If we banned smoking in public places those rates would come down and the nation would be healthier. A ban might encourage healthier living.

In our school, a group in secondary 1 chose to find out other pupils' views on smoking as part of a citizenship project. They did a survey among first and second years and found that 85 per cent support our campaign for a ban on smoking in public places. A huge majority in the school supports us.

Is that support widespread among young people across Scotland or is it unique to Firrhill because of the petition that you submitted to the Parliament?

Not a lot of people in our school knew about the petition—perhaps only a couple of our friends. People chose to do what they did of their own accord. Given that when we started out on all of this, the S1 pupils had only just come up to the school, they did not really know what was going on. Support for the ban must be quite a big thing. There is support for it not only in our school, but—

It is fairly widespread among young people.

Yes.

I have a question for the pupils from Mile-End. You undertook a project, held a debate and wrote a number of letters on the subject. Did the pupils who took part in the debate have a vote on whether to ban smoking?

The strong lady at the table—Claire Repper—is pointing at Findlay Masson. Do you want to say something, Claire?

Almost everyone agreed that there should be a ban on smoking. When we held our debate, we did it almost in a parliamentary way—we had wanting-to-speak cards and so on. Pretty much all the class said, "Yes, I want the ban."

As Stewart Maxwell is satisfied on the point, I will bring in Nanette Milne.

After a lot of campaigning, many people in my age group have given up smoking. It is now apparent that a lot of those who are taking up smoking are young people and, in particular, young girls. Do you have an idea why that is the case?

Is it to stay slim? We are always being told that that is the reason—apart from looking cool, that is.

I do not think that it is to keep slim, although some people might use that as an excuse. I think that it is more the result of peer pressure. If someone's friends do something, they just want to fit in and so they do the same things.

I thank all the witnesses very much, not only for your petitions and submissions but for speaking out so well this morning. Your information was impressive—you have put us to shame. Thank goodness you are still too young to stand for Parliament or some of our coats would be on shoogly pegs.

The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care is now available. I suggest that we return to item 1 after which we will resume our evidence taking. Are members content to do so?

Members indicated agreement.