Chamber and committees

In taking up this post, after the First Minister asked me to take on the role, I began to do what I always do, which is to listen to the voices of lived experience, and accountability featured strongly in what people said—much more strongly than I expected. Often, when people have a difficulty, they feel that accountability is lacking.

I will give an example. Many times, my officials and I have heard people tell us their stories in which things have not gone right for them and they have gone to the health and social care partnership and been told that the matter is not the HSCP’s responsibility but the council’s responsibility or the NHS’s responsibility. That is not acceptable.

People—including MSPs at points—cannot understand that I and the Scottish Government have no accountability in any of that. We set policy direction but we are not responsible for delivering the services. Many members write to me regularly, asking me to resolve problems that they encounter with constituents.

People believe that there should be ministerial accountability. They believe that the local accountability must be more robust. For all of us who regularly deal with casework, there is nothing more frustrating than somebody coming to you with a problem—sometimes an easy thing to resolve—that has not been dealt with.

It is a bit of a surprise for me how high up the agenda accountability was for people but it is very high indeed.

Yes, in short. We are introducing the new duties to prevent homelessness, including the new duties on public bodies to act to prevent homelessness. Those have to be embedded in the NCS. We need to ensure that interventions are made much earlier than they often are at present, and that there is case co-ordination in order to get it right for folks. We need to do that across services as a whole, not just in the national care service. I am sure that Ms Roddick and the committee are aware that the new duties will be guided by the shared principles of public responsibility to prevent homelessness.

Work has been done over the past few years. I was previously involved in it, and the fact that I have changed jobs does not mean that I do not have a deep interest in ensuring that we get it right on homelessness. The lessons that we have learned from the homelessness and rough sleeping action group and the lived experience panels that we put in place give us, as a Government, and Ms Robison the right information to ensure that our current work leads to real change across the board.

We will look at all of that as we move forward. I have had a fair amount of discussion with Ms Robison, and officials are working together on all aspects of that.

I know that your emphasis is on homelessness prevention, but we also have to look at how care and housing already intersect. I am very proud of the way in which we have moved forward in Scotland with the housing first approach. I do not have the most up-to-date figures, so you will have to excuse me if I get this slightly wrong, but figures from a while back showed that, under the housing first approach, the tenancy retention rate for folks was 90 per cent. Most folk never thought that that would be achievable, so why has it happened? It is about not just the housing aspect but ensuring that care, addiction and mental health services all match up.

In order to prevent homelessness and ensure that we do our level best for people overall, there has to be continued co-operation across the piece to ensure that we do the right thing by each person.

I thank Mr McLennan for that question, which is very important, particularly given what we have gone through over the past two years—not only the pandemic, but the current cost of living crisis and the on-going war in Ukraine.

For many things, we do not have to wait for the national care service to be established, and the Government is working with others at this moment to make improvements. I will give you some examples. There are a lot of things that we can do in the here and now to make improvements and we are taking action to do so. We have committed to increasing spend on social care by 25 per cent by the end of the parliamentary session. That helps lay the groundwork for the national care service. In April, as you know, we set the minimum hourly rate for providing direct adult social care at £10.50 an hour, which was the second pay rise in a year. The Government has also transferred £200 million to local government to support investment in social care, which includes delivery of that uplift.

We are also working with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to progress fair work in the sector. The fair work in social care group has developed a set of recommendations for minimum standards for terms and conditions, which reflect those fair work principles and will look at things such as improving the rates of maternity, paternity and sick pay. Of course, we are doing a lot with partners to assist in recruitment and retention. A lot of things are going on.

I agree with those folks who say that we cannot afford to wait for a national care service in order to make movement in some of those areas, and we will not wait. We will continue to make the right investments to build our social care system in Scotland and do our level best for the social care profession.

I do not have any responsibility for service delivery. You are right that ministers have responsibility for policy direction and resourcing, but we do not direct local government or health and social care partnerships. We have removed ring fencing from the local government landscape to a huge degree, which local government asked for.

Some things are my responsibility—I know that—but I am not accountable for service delivery. The public finds it hard to believe that ministers are not responsible for that, so one of the reasons for the change is to ensure that ministers are accountable for service delivery and that we get accountability right at the local level as well, because people do not necessarily feel that the way that that is done at the moment is right either.

Sectoral bargaining is extremely important. It does not need to be in the bill, but we are working closely with stakeholders and unions on how we move all of that in future, and I want to push the boundaries. The Parliament does not have powers over employment, but we must ensure that we get that right, and bargaining is one of the key elements to doing so. Again, we need to engage with and listen to colleagues who are on the front line and trade unions. I hope that local government will also come to the table, and I am sure that the third sector will. We need to get that right.

I have always talked about care as a profession. Long before I got this job, in speechifying that I made from the back benches, I talked about care as a profession. However, many folk do not see it that way, for the simple reason that, traditionally, it is an area of work that has attracted low pay and poor conditions. We have to change that. We have to build the workforce for the future, and I want the profession to become attractive to young people because, if it does not, it will not be sustainable. We must get all of the elements absolutely right.

There are a number of complex issues there. We are fully committed to fair work, and I have a strong desire to ensure that we get all this right. I should probably declare an interest in that I have two nieces who work in social care, one of whom is on maternity leave and very nearly did not get maternity pay. I will not go into the detail, but that is unacceptable in the 21st century. I want to make sure that we get it right for the workforce, the majority of whom are women. We need to move now on things such as maternity pay and paternity pay with the co-operation of COSLA and others. However, the NCS gives us a huge opportunity on the other pay and conditions aspects.

On your question about how we handle human rights, interdepartmental working and making sure that legislation connects, we constantly talk across Government about how we get those things right. To ensure that human rights are at the very heart of the process, we need to continue to listen to folks about where they think that their rights and needs are not being met. Again, the co-design process gives us the ability to ensure that everything that we do covers as many bases as possible—if not all bases—and does our level best for folks. Human rights are extremely important in all this; they are at the heart of what we are doing. As I said, we need to continue to listen to folk on what we need to do on that front.

Have I missed something? I have a feeling that I missed something.

We are absolutely committed to using the learning from the pandemic to ensure that people are supported to see and spend time with the folks who are important to them. I know that Mr McLennan has had a lot of dealings with members of the care home relatives group, as have I, over the piece. Some of the stories, which we have all heard, are very harrowing indeed. That is why Anne’s law is included in the bill, in order to support the rights of people who are living in adult care homes to remain connected even during outbreak situations.

We have done a lot of work on that over the piece, and the committee will note that I have already changed regulations in that regard. From talking to the Care Inspectorate yesterday—I speak to that organisation every month or so—I know that there have been no complaints since its last report regarding folks not being able to see relatives, and long may that continue. That shows that the change in regulation has helped dramatically.

Nevertheless, that is one of the areas that we need to get right in primary legislation. The bill will give ministers the right to issue visiting directions to care home providers and ensure that they comply with those directions. I am quite sure that this is one of the areas of the bill in which the public at large will have a great interest, particularly all the folks from the care home relatives group, with whom I know that Mr McLennan and others have been engaging, as have I.

The third sector is a valued part of social care in Scotland, and it will continue to be so as we move forward. The sector is currently delivering quality social care, and sometimes very specialist social care, across Scotland. Third sector organisations are vital in providing advocacy for people and a huge range of other services. I have no doubt that the third sector will continue to be a major player in the delivery of social care, including specialist services, in Scotland. We expect, with a national care service, that there will be a mixture of providers. That is the way that it should be.

Currently, many third sector organisations find that the arrangements for procurement and tendering do not work well for them. The committee has heard from witnesses earlier this morning and previously that it is much easier for third sector organisations to operate in some areas than in others because of the procurement and tendering situations that exist. We have the ability, through ethical procurement, to iron out some of the difficulties that have arisen over the past two or three decades in order to get that right. Again, that will give third sector organisations much greater clarity than, many would say, they currently have.

In addition, I highlight that a very good example of the co-operation that will be required is the work that Mr Balfour and I did with others, including some previous members, on the inclusion of changing places toilets in the bill that became the Planning (Scotland) Act 2019. That has changed the dynamic not only in planning and building standards, but in how we continue to enhance and improve such provision. That kind of work shows Parliament at its best, and I hope that we can achieve exactly the same thing with all, or most, aspects of this bill.

This is an all-Scotland programme and we have to get it right for everyone, whether they live in a city such as Edinburgh, in a rural area or on an island. We have to draw a distinction with those folks who live in very remote rural areas. I want everybody to be involved in the process, and we will do what we can to hear as many voices as possible.

On my travels—I am pleased that we can now get out and about a bit more—I recently visited Shetland. In looking at aspects such as care boards and delivery, we might well have to adapt the process for island communities and other more remote communities, and we are open to that. We need those voices to say things like, “That may not be quite good enough for us here because of this.” We will do all that we can to attract those voices.

Moving away from geographical communities, I note that we also have to ensure that we hear the voices of other communities, including minority communities, as it is often much more difficult to get them to come to the table. I am thankful to the Minority Ethnic Carers of People Project in Edinburgh, which in recent weeks gave me the opportunity to talk to Chinese and south Asian carers and their loved ones, and to folks from the Gypsy Traveller community. We are doing our best to bring in all the voices that we can.