Chamber and committees

Of course, and there are examples. We would not support nuclear power in Scotland. We would put the billions of investment that would go into that from the public purse into renewables, green technologies and the net zero agenda. There are clearly massive differences in some areas of policy north and south of the border and between the UK Government and the Scottish Government. Perhaps “wildly different” is one way of describing it. It is interesting that external bodies are now taking that view.

I can speak to what is happening in the Government and, to a certain extent, the public sector, but, clearly, just transition is a concept and an approach that has to be adopted by all parts of society. It is not for Government alone; it is for the business community, local community groups and local government, as well as for the wider public sector and the Scottish Government.

In the Scottish Government, all ministers and cabinet secretaries are engaged in delivering a just transition through their own portfolios. As we take forward the various plans, which we may come on to in further questions, each minister and cabinet secretary is responsible for them. It is not me or the cabinet secretary, Màiri McAllan, who is solely responsible for taking them forward. The knocking down of the silos and cross-Government working will, I hope, move forward in a positive way.

A lot of the challenges that you have mentioned, such as trying to knock down the silos and trying to get everyone working together in one direction, are applicable to society in general and not only to the just transition. I absolutely understand how communities can get frustrated when they do not see those things happening.

We saw the furore that there was when the UK Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, recently backtracked on some of his climate commitments. We would not have done that backtracking if we had a say on some of those policy areas. There is obviously divergence in some areas and we just have to continue to work with the UK Government to persuade it to invest in the right priorities and to give Scotland a decent budget settlement to enable us to fulfil our responsibilities to deliver a just transition in Scotland.

There are projects in which just transition funding is just one part of their funding, and there has been collaboration with outside investors, as well. The fund plays a valuable role in that context, and the enterprise agencies and local authorities are working closely with the Scottish Government. We consult them closely on all the projects that are funded through the just transition fund. I have no doubt that there is more work that we could do to ensure that the momentum continues with that collaboration and joint funding of projects. Again, we will continue to reflect on that. There are some good examples out there.

This year, I want to reflect on the first couple of years of the just transition fund and the wider policy, because we need the support of the UK Government and our local government in Scotland. I am impressed by how the just transition is increasingly reflected in decisions, particularly in Scotland. The growth deals are probably one of the more positive examples of the Scottish and UK Governments co-operating and working together. They are a good example of the innovative projects that are emerging in the just transition/net zero space and the innovation space that are being funded jointly by the UK and Scottish Governments. There is a lot more joining up to do in Scotland.

We take that into account, and we very much recognise that concern. In other parts of Government, changes have been made to give more assurance to certain sectors—for instance, the third sector—in various funds. Because the just transition fund is capital-intensive, we are very much at the behest of Jeremy Hunt, the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, standing up and announcing the UK Government budget. We are not in the same position as the UK Government in being able to give those multiyear guarantees, but we have funded multiyear projects. In many cases, the funding in the draft budget, as well as previous funding, is going towards multiyear projects.

I take the point about looking several years ahead and the fact that there may be projects that require several years of commitment. Clearly, we are not in a position to give that just now, because of the financial constraints.

I will certainly take that point away and reflect on it. I am sure that the committee will, no doubt, raise it in its report as well. There are not necessarily any easy answers to those questions, but I assure you that we are conscious of the issue, as we have had similar feedback from groups.

If anyone has the answer on how to avoid trade-offs, I am all ears. That is something that we all struggle with and always have. Clearly, you have to take a decision at some point to open funds and work with people to make the best of what is available. There is no way of avoiding trade-offs. You mentioned that Forres, which is the most affluent ward, receives funds. The projects will benefit the whole community. Looking at it through just one lens is not always helpful. Obviously, I would have to check exactly what Moray TUC said, but you get my gist.

A lot of the projects are about tackling some of the inequalities that I mentioned at the beginning of the meeting. The just transition is about creating good green jobs and tackling some of the social ills and inequalities in society. Some people who live in energy-rich Moray cannot afford to pay their fuel bills, and we have to address such issues as part of the just transition. If some of the small local projects can help to make a difference to some local people, they are important. We have to spread that ethos throughout the country for the national transition across Scotland.

That is a good question, and it is, of course, a question that I hear often. The just transition principles are, of course, reflected in the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009. When I meet people, I define the just transition in as straightforward a way as I can, as a way of ensuring that the transition to net zero is managed and planned, and I explain that the measures that we take and the policies that we implement to go towards net zero are carried out in a fair way, do not leave people behind, and are co-designed with the people most affected. Clearly, creating good green jobs for people in Scotland, particularly those in the sectors that are most impacted by the transition away from fossil fuels to low-carbon technologies, is at the heart of that. Most people I have spoken to in organisations, including Aberdeen City Council, have accepted that when I have met them, and I think that there is broad agreement about the aims and general principles of the just transition.

There is always a debate, because a just transition can mean all things to all people. It is not just about jobs. Jobs are at the heart of it, but it is also about using the economic transformation that we will be going through in the coming decades between now and 2045. There is a massive window of opportunity to fix things that we do not think are right and we think are unfair in our society and economy, including fuel poverty and many other economic issues. As we go through that economic transformation, we have an opportunity to fix some of those things in our society.

I agree with a lot of the sentiment that has been expressed to the committee on the issue. I have been in the Parliament since 1999, and many people around the table have been in the Parliament for some time, so they are aware as much as I am of how quickly the agenda has changed and how the issues of the just transition and net zero have rocketed to the top of the agenda in the past few years. Society and the world are changing fast, and the debate about net zero, as we see in the daily news, is now at the forefront.

I accept that we have to measure better what we are achieving with the just transition policy in Scotland. On the just transition fund, for instance, the first couple of years have been just about getting it off the ground and going. If you go to north-east Scotland, for instance, you will see that a remarkable transformation is under way. Amazing things are happening. I am lucky: as a minister, I get to visit a lot of the places and meet the people involved, What is happening just now in north-east Scotland and other parts of the country with the fund and the many projects is hugely inspirational. It is not just about the just transition fund; there are other funds and initiatives under way in north-east Scotland that you will all be aware of from your inquiry. Things are happening, and we have to measure that.

At the moment, we have biannual reports to take stock of where we are with all the funds and the projects. I am keen to develop the next phase of that in 2024, so that we can have proper reporting in place to look at the job implications of what has been created, as well as the wider investment.

One of the issues that I have raised with officials so that we can address that is that the just transition is not just one aspect of policy or about one fund. There are lots of different sources of support and activities under way across Scotland, particularly in the north-east, at the moment to support the just transition. We have to bring that together and tell the story and then look, as a country, at where we are with the just transition.