Chamber and committees

That is one reason why the Scottish Government has allocated much more resource to mental health services in the past year or two and throughout the pandemic. As Alastair Cook said, the forthcoming mental health strategy, which will be published shortly, will take into account issues in relation to inactivity and employment.

I made the point that—this might go back to your hobby horse of data—it is difficult to make many assumptions when we have no data to back them up. As I said, Scotland has quite a long-standing issue with long-term illness, and we project that the issue will be even greater in future years. It is difficult to back up and justify homing in on one factor and saying that the figures relate directly to Covid, because of the nature of long-term illness. People can have many different illnesses.

Your key point is correct—we are looking at how to further the delivery of mental health services, because that will make longer-term savings by helping the economy and by helping people to get back to work or whatever. That is why we continue to take the issue seriously.

I am not arguing against your general point; that is something that we should continue to look at, and I am sure that there is always room for improvement. Obviously, if the committee makes recommendations along those lines, we will treat them very seriously. I welcome the fact that the committee is holding its inquiry, and if you give us some recommendations that will help us to help people and Scotland, we will definitely take them on board.

That is a very good question. My view is that we should be doing more to bring people who have taken early retirement back into the workplace, although not necessarily in full-time positions but perhaps through flexible or part-time working. We have labour shortages in Scotland, but it is not just that; we should also remember that things change and evolve. People who took early retirement, having reflected on their work-life balance and other quality of life factors during the pandemic, may be reflecting again, now that we are through the worst of the pandemic. We should take advantage of that. The cost of living crisis is also perhaps encouraging some people who took early retirement from their previous jobs to go back into the workplace to some degree—maybe part time.

We are working with Age Scotland and funding some work that it is doing to help it to train and work with managers and organisations to make their employment policies and workplaces more attractive in order to bring people in the 50 to 64 age group back into the world of work.

Early retirement is one factor that has led to the increase in inactivity in the past few years, although it has not had as much of an effect as long-term sickness. However, when we look at the data, we see that some of those who have taken early retirement have done so for specific reasons such as caring for others, including family members. It is therefore not quite as simple as saying that they are available to come back into the workplace. There are a variety of factors out there.

Yes, I do, and I think that there is ageism among many employers in Scotland. People who are aged 50 to 64—potentially older; it is up to individuals—have a lot to contribute and offer. We must tackle ageism.

Perhaps because of labour shortages and the number of vacancies, employers are now much more open-minded and willing to listen to what they can do to make their businesses more attractive to older people and to recruit those who are aged 50 to 64. I am in that age bracket myself and I have not been made unemployed or forced to take early retirement yet—although who knows what will happen. People of that age represent a huge part of the population and a fantastic resource, and we should do what we can to encourage people in that age band to come back into the workplace, if it suits their lifestyle and their personal circumstances. Your country needs you.

Yes, and I will take the message away from the committee that we have to focus on working with employers more to encourage them to tap into the support that is made available by the public sector. The Scottish Government is funding various initiatives, and there are agencies working on that. Resources are available through primary care and, in some cases for employers, through occupational health and other channels.

At a time of labour shortages, it is in the interest of employers to look at all of the options that are available and at the support that is out there for them. We need to help employers and ensure that the NHS provision is there, as well.

Yes, it includes a lot more than the real living wage. One other key additional measure that we are looking for employers to adopt is offering employees flexible working from day 1. More and more employers are doing that. Scotland has more accredited employers who have signed up to fair work criteria than the rest of the UK. We are making good progress on the fair work agenda, which is more important than ever before. Because of the cost of living crisis, we want more people to have the real living wage, and because of labour shortages, we want more employers to be more flexible so that they can attract people back into the workplace, particularly those in the 50 to 64 age group who have taken early retirement.

That is a good question. I was discussing it with colleagues, because I anticipated the question, but I am not sure that I have a precise answer for you. It is clear that there is a very serious situation facing the NHS in Scotland. It is under huge pressure; we are all familiar with the reasons for that. There is no doubt, therefore, that there are people who are unable to work because they are waiting for treatment. However, it is difficult to get evidence to back up that point, because the statistics on inactivity in Scotland relate largely, as we have seen, to long-term illness and sickness. Indeed, the increase in the proportion of people who are inactive with long-term illness was beginning before the pandemic, so it is difficult to link it directly to the pandemic or to back up the point that Murdo Fraser makes.

Of course there will be people in Scotland who are currently unable to get treatment as quickly as they would like because of the pressures on the NHS and who are therefore unable to return to work. They may be on sick leave but, as I said, the inactivity figures are largely down to long-term illness and people who have a combination of long-term illnesses, not just one condition.

Of course we can always deploy and collect our data better. A lot of employment data is collected at the UK level and not the Scottish level. You are referring to data about mental health, which is largely a devolved issue, but a lot of the data for the relationship to and impact on the employment situation is collected at the UK level. We have small samples for Scotland out of that UK collection.

For instance, when we interrogate and try to drill down into the inactivity rate, we often have to rely on very small subsamples from UK surveys. It is difficult to reach firm conclusions, because a lot of that data is collected by UK exercises. Obviously, health data is a devolved issue. I am just saying that the relationship between the health data, the employment situation and economic activity is quite difficult to pin down, because data on that is collected at a UK level and we have very small subsamples. It is important to make that point.

I think that Lewis Hedge wants to comment on the point about data.

We are still committed to a centre for workplace transformation, and for all of the reasons that we have discussed, it would be very timely. We will make announcements on that in due course. That commitment was to be fulfilled during this parliamentary session, and we are keen to make an announcement on it as soon as we are able to, but we have a lot of considerations to take on board in the current climate. We are still committed to that, and we will keep the committees and the Parliament up to date on it.

Yes—we are looking at all these issues in order to learn more.