Chamber and committees

It would be more effective and efficient if it was done collaboratively.

I thank you both for this excellent evidence, which was very interesting. It was a really good discussion. Do you want to make any further points before we wind up the session? Is there anything that you feel that we have not covered?

We just ran out of time, to be honest.

As Sarah Watters has no further comments to make, I thank you both once again for your evidence.

We will continue to take evidence on the Scottish Government’s public service reform programme at our next meeting.

That concludes the public part of today’s meeting. The next item on our agenda, which will be discussed in private, is consideration of our work programme. We will have a five-minute comfort break to allow official report staff and our guests to leave.

I have one final question regarding the fact that local authorities were not asked by the Scottish Government to submit reform plans to inform the 2024-25 Scottish budget. How do you feel about that?

An important part of reform is digitalisation. It is clear that there has to be co-operation between the Scottish Government and local government, so I am a wee bit concerned about some of the comments on that in your submission.

For example, in paragraph 43, you talk about the myjobscotland portal, which you say is managed by COSLA and

“has streamlined the recruitment process for councils and other public sector bodies (although the Scottish Government and its agencies have opted not to use it)”.

In paragraph 70, you say that, in the digital strategy,

“both COSLA and the Scottish Government committed to develop and expand DigitalBoost as ‘our primary programme of support for SMEs’.”

You go on to say that

“Despite this, the programme saw its budget reduced by 25% for 2022/23 and indications are that it is unlikely to be funded in 2023/24.”

Clearly, the collaboration is not working as well as it should. Why is the Scottish Government not using myjobscotland and why is the digital strategy support for SMEs not being continued?

I do not want to talk only about budgetary stuff, because our inquiry is more about reform, but that is at the core of a lot of what you have been saying, so I will ask one or two questions on that before I bring Sarah Watters in.

The figures that you mentioned are from paragraph 46 of your submission, in which you talk about

“an increase of 4.3% in Scottish Government funding of other areas over the same period”,

but would that be the case if you were to take out the funding for the national health service, for example? The difficulty has been that we have an ageing and more frail population. We could argue about the percentages here and there, but any Government of any colour would have put a disproportionate amount of additional funding, when it was available, into the NHS because of it being demand led. An example of that is the fact that, pre-pandemic, there was a 25 per cent increase in accident and emergency cases over five years. There has been a 50 per cent increase in radiographers and a doubling of the number of psychiatrists in the NHS, but that is still not enough.

Is that not the context in which we operate? You responded in such a way as to suggest that we are all heading in the same direction at the same pace, but there are some areas of the Scottish Government where the pressures are absolutely in your face. You can argue about priorities—it is crucial that we do that—but is that not the background picture, in a period in which, overall, we have had a fairly flat funding settlement over a number of years?

I will ask you about those kinds of issues as we move on. It is interesting that you keep saying “since 2008”, but as I recall, the previous Administration had a policy of top slicing 3 per cent of local government funding year in, year out. That would have been its policy, so we would have been in this situation regardless of which Administration we had had.

I have a question for Sarah Watters—fair funding sounds good, but how much is fair funding? That is the issue. Given that local government is as aware as the rest of us of the financial pressures that the Scottish Government and indeed the United Kingdom Government are under, how realistic is it to expect additional funding for local government over and above any average increase in the settlement that may come to the Scottish Government over the next year?

The medium-term financial strategy states:

“it is for individual public bodies ... to determine the target operating model for their workforces and to ensure workforce plans and projections are affordable in 2023-24 and over the medium term”

Do you consider that to be realistic at this time?

Indecisiveness is obviously a concern in some instances.

I will wind up the session by giving our witnesses the opportunity to make any final points if they feel that we have not touched on an issue or if they wish to emphasise something.