Chamber and committees

I will continue Rona Mackay’s line of questioning. Like her, I commend the strong words that you gave to the committee. I agree that there is a moral imperative for all of Government to consider carefully the disproportionate nature of gender-based violence against women. As you and the Crown Agent described, the unavoidable delays will have a serious impact.

You are also right to say that it is a political matter and, therefore, a matter for us to consider. However, I am interested in your opinion as to the length of the period in which there would be judge-led trials as an interim measure, if that were to be legislated for. Should it be one year or two years? Do you have any time in mind? I know that it is hard to judge how long the backlog will take to clear, but it would be helpful if you could tell the committee how long you think we would need those arrangements for before we reassess the situation.

Thank you for that. I will not pin you down on anything specific, but what is your general sense of what is needed? Is it additional staffing or additional space? As you say, the gym is not suitable for everyone. During the pandemic, some of us preferred walking, or had to walk. Perhaps more people do that now. Getting out in the fresh air just to be in the fresh air or to get exercise is vital, particularly for prisoners. Is this a staffing issue, a shift issue or an estate issue? Where could we make changes?

That is helpful. I note that, in virtually all the cases in which Naloxone has been administered, it has saved lives, so I welcome your answer.

Good morning. My question is a follow-up from Jamie Greene’s question about pay and staffing. First, though, I say that I fully acknowledge that Crown Office staff having parity with Government lawyers is long overdue. I go back a wee bit on this issue, so I am fully aware of how long that has taken, and I am delighted that it has happened.

My question relates to that issue. The Crown Agent has said that the challenge of outstanding trials is huge. However, I would have thought that, if all the parts of the system are not functioning as they should, we have got a bigger problem. You will be aware of the boycott of court due to the dispute on legal aid fees. Yesterday, I spoke to the presidents of the Glasgow Bar Association and the Edinburgh Bar Association and I heard that those lawyers are working 26 days consecutively over the period of the 26th United Nations climate change conference of the parties—COP26—including the three weekends. As the Lord Advocate said, if you work out the hourly rate for a lawyer working in those circumstances, you will see that it is pretty low, and the committee has already heard evidence that the conditions are not exactly family friendly.

It is clear that one part of the system is not working. We are losing good lawyers because of the dispute on the issue of legal aid, the end of which is long overdue. Is there a danger that a shortfall in the availability of suitably experienced defence lawyers might undermine efforts to improve criminal justice and meet the challenges that are before you, as you outlined to the committee?

It would be helpful to get a response to the convener’s remark. I raised that issue in our virtual session in September because I represent Glasgow, and, obviously, HMP Barlinnie is an important prison for the west of Scotland. That date just seems so far away.

It is important that I acknowledge, as other members have done, the serious challenge for the Prison Service and its staff during the pandemic and the amazing job that they have done under very difficult circumstances.

Ms Medhurst knows that I am interested in making progress on the amount of fresh air that prisoners can get outside their cells. Obviously, the opportunity to do that has been very much restricted during the pandemic. I do not need to remind you that

“Every prisoner who is not employed in outdoor work”

is entitled to

“at least one hour of suitable exercise in the open air”.

We have heard your answers to our questions, and you cannot be accountable for all that, but we need to make serious progress in Scotland on meeting our obligations under the European convention on human rights. What shift in the budget would be required to double or make a significant difference to the minimum period for which prisoners can go outside?

Thank you, convener. My area of interest is probably wider than that, and I am struck by how much work is going on. From what I have heard this morning, we have a great deal of evidence and lived experience, and we have heard a lot about the causes or what needs to be done. I am clear about the role of diversion, which all the papers talk about, and about the role of consumption rooms, which Peter Krykant has been running and which we have debated in the Parliament. It would be helpful to get some guidance from Neil Richardson and Peter Krykant about what they think legislators could prioritise. There are so many frameworks and organisations, so I would like to focus on the top two or three things that legislators need to do in order to build on the work that has been done and tackle the horrendous situation of Scotland having the highest number of drug deaths.

I will interrupt you there, if you do not mind, because that is the problem that I am struggling with. I commend you on the work that the task force has done—I did not know about any of it until I read the papers. However, it needs to be boiled down for us as legislators. We have a task force, frameworks and joined-up working. As a legislator, I need to focus and to boil it down in ordinary terms to the two or three things that need to be actioned. That is what I am driving at.

Thanks—that is helpful.

Peter Krykant said in his opening statement that he was not a drug user when he was 16 and in care. The Transform Drug Policy Foundation submission states that 13 per cent of people in prison were not drug users before they went to prison. There is quite a big theme about people ending up taking drugs because they are in prison or in care or whatever. Mr Krykant, what else should we be doing to prevent that? What should the Parliament’s priority be in building a wider strategy that will make a difference on Scotland’s drug deaths, which I suppose is what Neil Richardson has talked about?

I wonder whether anyone has any comments on the 13 per cent of prisoners who enter prison with no previous history of drug use but start using drugs in prison. I find that worrying. As well as supporting people who are already on drugs when they go into prison, we need to worry about the 13 per cent. Why is that happening and what should we be doing about it?

Yes. We will have to use international examples, and examples that are perhaps anecdotal but which are nevertheless compelling. The chief medical officer and the chief pharmaceutical officer have addressed us, and there has been some agreement on the need for proper trials. Although it is legal just now for general practitioners to prescribe certain cannabis products, they might not have the confidence to do so. Trials are therefore really important, and we want to ensure that we are pushing at that door, which is partly open, I feel. I think that there is a lot of interest in the issue, but, as you would expect, any Government or medical system wants things to be tried and tested.